Episode 130 / Quinn O’Brien / Lenovo / Vice President, Global Marketing
Podcast: Why Agencies Need to Move to a Consultative Approach in Selling and Working with Brands
Lenovo’s Vice President, Global Marketing, Quinn O’Brien has worked in marketing for over 25 years. Having seen the world through both agency and client’s eyes, his Shiny New Object is the changing role of agencies.
When Quinn was growing up, he was aiming to become a lawyer – not just a lawyer, however, but a specific fictional character from LA Law. He calls his one of his biggest career screw-ups: essentially picking a career not for what it was or what he could bring to the table, but for what it looked like on-screen. Thankfully, a career adviser turned him around and on to marketing, which ended up his true vocation.
His first and most important piece of advice for students, especially in light of the importance of having good counselling, is to choose their first job well, and their manager in particular: “Worry a lot less about what company you work for, what your title and salary is, and worry a lot more about who you work for.” Having a good boss who has your back and helps you acclimate to the working world is priceless.
Quinn’s Shiny New Object reflects his background in both agency and in-house marketing: the changing role of agencies. As more ex-agency marketers have moved in-house, Quinn believes agencies are scrambling to show their true value when pitching to clients. He also warns that clients are nowadays more assertive and want to go through a consultative conversation about their business as a whole before committing to work with an agency.
This is why trust is essential. Getting through to meetings with your ideal customers should rely on networking and being referred by other clients, to build that initial trust.
To find out more about Quinn’s career path, his view on having the “wow” factor in marketing, and his advice for switching to consultative selling as a marketing agency, listen to the podcast here.
Subscribe to the ‘Shiny New Object’ Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube and Soundcloud.
Transcript
The following is an automated transcription that is not 100% accurate, but will give you a good idea of what was said.
Tom Ollerton 0:00
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Hello, and welcome to the Shiny New Object. My name is Tom Ollerton. I'm the founder of Automated Creative. And this is a podcast about the future of marketing every week or so. I have the pleasure and the absolute privilege to interview our industry's leaders about their vision of the future of the industry. I'm on a call with Quinn O'Brien, who is vice president Global Marketing at Lenovo. Quinn, for those listeners who don't know who you are, and what you do. Could you give them a bit of an overview?
Quinn O'Brien 1:02
Yeah, definitely. Thanks, Tom. So I've been in marketing for probably about 25 years. So a long time. I started out on the agency side and worked most of that on the agency side, I started out in Boston, working for some really small agencies and, and a really big agency in Boston, and then moved to New York and worked for Ogilvy and probably spent most of my agency career at Ogilvy working on IBM and a range of other accounts. I left there, founded a small agency that grew into a big agency, and then about eight years ago, left the agency world and came over to Lenovo. So I've been at Lenovo for about eight years, and started out really focused on branding, specifically, and how to how to manage and build the Lenovo brand and have kind of steadily expanded that out. And now we look after corporate marketing for the company.
Tom Ollerton 1:59
And I understand from chatting before that this is your eighth or ninth podcast, is that right?
Quinn O'Brien 2:06
I have it's been, it's been something that just in the in the last 12 months, I know everyone else is experiencing the same of working from home and, you know, trying to balance things, it's been a really nice outlet and ability to still talk about work, but to not talk about kind of the stuff I have going on day to day. But to broaden it out a little bit and, and gain some perspective for myself, and hopefully, you know, talk about things that are interesting. So in some ways, has kept me sane and hopefully added some value.
Tom Ollerton 2:40
Well, I think with that many podcast appearances, you probably on target, do your own show next. So...
Quinn O'Brien 2:48
That is not my goal, but but I do enjoy it. So. So I'm looking forward to this.
Tom Ollerton 2:55
So an interesting career. Definitely the first person who's been on this podcast and 100 or so guests that set up their agency, scaled and then gone back in on the other side. So I'm really keen to find out more about your career, but specifically, what has been the biggest fuckup of your career to date that you are absolutely hated yourself for. But maybe it made you the man you are?
Quinn O'Brien 3:22
In the podcasts I've done no one's ever asked me that. So that is a good question to start with. I think actually, to be honest, it probably goes to before I started in the first agency I worked for I started out and I think part of the biggest fuckup I had was I started out really focused on being a lawyer and I had set my sights from a very young age probably 12 on being a corporate lawyer. And the reason it was a fuckup was I did it for just completely the wrong reasons. I went into it. There was a TV show on at the time that really glamorized lawyers and there was a guy when I was that, it was called LA Law. And there was an actor on the show who, in my 12 year old mind was the person I wanted to be in the world. And he was, drove a nice car. He was a you know, a handsome fellow, you know, ladies liked him, he went to nice restaurants. He was just living a really good life, in my view. And so I see, you know, at that age, I was going alright, I want to be this guy. I want to be Corbin Bernsen on LA Law. Arnie Becker was this character. And you know, even down to like, he drove a Porsche. I wanted to drive a Porsche like it I really had this materialistic view on I want to be this guy. You know, barring the fact is all of your listeners will recognize he's not a real person. So that was the first fuckup was modeling myself off a guy who was not real. But also that sort of led from I want to be like him to I want to be a lawyer, which is another, you know, not a great jump. And so it went all the way through college where, you know, I went pre law in college and was taking law classes. And it got up to a point where I actually took my second semester of my sophomore year, I took a class with a professor who it was his last semester teaching, and he said, At the start of class, I am going to make it my point as a as a benefit to the legal community to weed out those of you who are not doing this for the right reason. And I got weeded out within like, 30 seconds, we sat down one on one, and he said, Tell me about why you want to be a lawyer. And I told that exact same story, but with no irony to it, like just go and lie.
Yeah, you're a lawyer, you must have watched LA Law. And he's like, Yeah, and I was like, I want to be Arnie Becker. Here's why. And he was just horrified. And, and it was, it was a really great moment, because it wasn't in the time I was panicked. But it was a really great moment, in hindsight, because he really just said, You're an idiot. This is exactly the wrong reason to choose a career. And he kind of painted based on my grades, which were not great. And my reason for wanting to be a lawyer, what my career in law would be like, and it was kind of the opposite of Arnie Becker was going to be a disaster. And, and I took it very seriously, because it was the first time that I still felt like a kid, it was the first time that an adult had really focused on me and said, You're an idiot, like that. Don't do that. So it led to a panic. And it led to me going out and starting to talk to people in other career fields. And and I got some really good advice. And I talked to you know, an IT guy, I talked to a finance person I talked to, to someone in HR and then I talked to someone in marketing, and she was actually the, in the marketing department at Xerox. And it was funny, because I rolled in, I talked to her about marketing, and I was like, I this this is it, like, I got that feeling where I was like, this is these are my people, this is the type of thing I want to do. And she was like, Okay, I think you'd be great in marketing, but I don't see you in a corporate marketing world, I see you very much in the agency side. And so she introduced me to our agency, and I went in and met with a guy in the agency. And that's when it clicked. And I was like, Alright, that's the, that's the path I want to go on. And, and part of it again, it was, it was just the vibe in the agency, it was what this guy talked about he that he did on a daily basis, it was the, you know, the clients that he worked on, I just could see myself and I had spent so much time panicking over the last three to four months of going, I've got to find something that's right for me. And it just again, it just clicked it was that moment where I go, I this is actually right, this is so true to who I am and what gets me out of bed in the morning. And what I'm passionate about, that I completely redirected at that point and went from wanting to be a lawyer to wanting to be in working in an ad agency and kind of spent the next two years of college trying to catch up, try and understand what I what advertising was what marketing was, and really focus myself as much as possible on getting in there. So it was a fuckup, from age 12, to probably midway through college, just one continual fuckup. And then a really valued piece of advice that flipped me around.
Tom Ollerton 8:37
So assuming that someone has worked out that they do want to be in the industry. What advice would you give to a student that wants to make their mark, get hired? And get ahead?
Quinn O'Brien 8:49
That's a really good question. I think and I talk a lot to students. So I've got as much of a perspective on that student mindset of the people as I could, as far removed as I am from it. But I think if I'm talking to someone who's just coming out of college, who's looking at that first job, The advice I'd give them would be worry a lot less about what company you work for, what your title is, what your salary is, worry a lot more about who you work for, not the company but the person, the person sitting across from you, who will be your first of all, because at the end of the day, to me that first job is about getting your feet under you, getting acclimated to what it actually is like to go from college to a to a job, understanding what it means to go to work to, you know, it's just the kind of the blocking and tackling of becoming a worker
Tom Ollerton 9:55
And what qualities would you look for in that boss?
Quinn O'Brien 9:58
Someone who you feel Like will have your best interests at heart. And that's, that's not a specific quality that you can easily point to, it's more of a sense that you get, but it's your, I don't be overly dramatic about it, but your success in the future, and your happiness relies a lot on whether that person that you start working for, really sees you as someone to nurture and grow, or sees you as you know, a means to their end that they're going to load work on. And they, they don't really care if you get someone who really cares, who looks at you and goes, I'm hiring someone who is going to who I'm going to nurture and turn into a true marketer. And then you're in great shape that no matter who you're working for, whether you're working for a small agency, a large agency, whether you're working in a marketing department of a company, no matter what industry you're working for, you'll be fine because that person is going to, to get you through the hard times, where because that transition from college to that first job is really tough. And they're going to be the ones who sit with you and talk to you who give you the really valuable feedback, who aren't afraid to say, You're messing this up, you, you know, you've got to really excel in this area, you got to focus on that, or they're going to coach you, like if you got a quality person sitting above you managing you in that first role. That's that is the thing that is going to make you love the industry. That's the thing that's going to help you to focus and that's the thing that's ultimately going to help you to be a good leader and manager because you're going to always remember that person, their style, how they worked. After that second job, it's almost less important because you've got you always want to work for someone good, but you've got your feet under you at that point, and you're starting to, to get some expertise, you're starting to focus, you're starting to point yourself in a direction that's really right for you as a career and you're starting to be able to own your own destiny. I feel like it's you know, it's funny, my, my daughter is really into animal science and and wants to study that in college, and so, you know, for her birthday, she asked for an incubator, where you you raise chicks. And it's you see these chicks hatch, and come out of that egg. And they're just like staggering around for the first couple of days, like no idea where they are incredibly vulnerable. And then they start to turn in and mature and become chickens. I never thought I'd have that example. We've just done now. We've now raised 11 chickens. So I've done that in the pandemic too. But, but it's interesting, I almost see like when you first come out of college, you're you're that incredibly vulnerable, newly formed being that needs someone to take care of you.
Tom Ollerton 12:52
So I'm curious to know, thinking about these, these young chickens, young chicks in the industry. Let's carry on the analogy. What's the best kind of short piece of advice that you've heard that you would pass on to them? Or actually not even the young chickens, but the fully formed chickens? Like what is that? What is that killer bit of advice that your top marketing tip?
Quinn O'Brien 13:14
I worked for a guy for probably four years here at Lenovo named David Roman. And he was a really interesting background, he was our global CMO. Really interesting background, he was Steve Jobs' ad guy. So he he was the head of advertising for Apple when Steve Jobs was there. And really, I think developed a lot of his perspective on on advertising and marketing from that experience, but also went on to HP and Nvidia and a bunch of other companies. So really seasoned, exact, seasoned marketer, but had a really interesting perspective. And the the advice and really the it wasn't a nugget of advice. It was kind of his philosophy on marketing was what he called Wow, marketing. And in the the essence of it was, if the thing you're doing isn't going to make someone say, Wow, whether it's Wow, that's funny. Wow, that's interesting. While that's thoughtful, while that makes me you know, cry. It's not worth doing. And you'll know that from very early on if the team that's working on the project is just can't wait to get it into market and is driven by this this thing is going to be amazing, then it's the right thing to be doing because you know, when it gets out there, people are going to look at it and go wow, that's that's really something. But so much of what we do as marketers isn't that it's so much of it is ticking boxes, filling slots in media plans, you know, doing what, what others want. And if you're really his big push was to really get in touch with your gut and which is what he can from Steve Jobs, get in touch with your gut. really look at what you're doing, and really assess whether anyone's ever going to say, Wow, out of that thing. And and if if they're not figure that out early, kill it do something different. And so it became this, this kind of mantra internally where you would look at it, and you'd look at anything you're doing and go, does it have that wow factor? And it's kind of it's funny, because it's kind of a trite thing. And he was not a trite guy. Like he was very, you know, thoughtful and deep and serious. But we would have these conversations about going like, does it have the wow factor? And, and if it didn't, we had no fear of killing it. So don't My advice would be, don't get into that mode, where you're churning things out, ever, always stay pure to your gut and look and go, will it make someone say, Wow, and again, no matter what it is, whether it's a, you know, a social post, whether it's a strategy brief that you're going to put in front of the director of strategy, like, are they going to read it and go, Wow, that is thoughtful, that is sharp. No matter what you're doing, always go for that reaction, and you you won't go wrong.
Tom Ollerton 16:13
That is a great bit of advice.
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We're gonna move on now to your shiny new object, which is the changing role of agencies. So I think you know what that means. But can you explain to the listeners, why why is that your shiny new object and what's going to happen next?
Quinn O'Brien 17:15
You know, it's funny, I spent a lot of obviously, a lot of time in agencies, like I said, both small and large, you know, digital and traditional startups, and really established agencies, local and global. So I got it, I got a really good sense of the world of agencies. And then I went over to the client side, and, and got a different perspective. So got to really look at, at a, you know, an agency relationship from the other side. And you couple that with, with the way the world's changed in marketing, where it's gone from, you know, when I first started out, it was slower. And it was definitely more traditional. And it was, you know, as a client, our clients would look at us and go, when you start a job in a marketing department, a client side, you need an ad agency, you need a digital agency, you need a media agency, you need a PR agency like that there was you'd walk in the door as a client and go, alright, who's my ad agency, there was no question of like, do I need one it was, I need one who is it? And the world's changed today, a lot of clients are bringing a lot of work in house, a lot of them are doing it for different reasons. Some are doing it because they can save money, some are doing it because they want to own their strategic IP. They don't want to outsource it to agencies. So there's a lot of different reasons why clients are bringing work in house. But they but but it is a trend. And it's a lot of agencies are really struggling. I know right now, with figuring out what's their reason for being what's the what's the hook that they can put into a client that will get them in the door that will build that that business. And so I think it's a really interesting topic to talk about, because I think, you know, I've heard people posit that, you know, agencies are dead, and it's all going in house, and I definitely do not think that is true. I've heard people say that, you know, the the role of agencies will be specialists in the future that there is no longer a role for big generalist agencies. And I don't think that's true. But I think I think it's more nuanced than both of those. But I do think that, that the role of agencies in a client's world as has changed and is continuing to change pretty dramatically.
Tom Ollerton 19:35
So if there's an agency that's trying to get you to say, Wow, and our future focused organization, so take into account what you've just said, What are you looking for what is going to make you say, Wow?
Quinn O'Brien 19:54
I think what, in the past so, you know, 15 years ago What would have I think a lot of age or maybe 10 years ago, I think the the thing that agencies did that made clients say, Wow, was they would, they would show up with their thing. So if you're a creative agency, you would show up with just brilliant creative campaign. And, and I worked on that. I mean, I did a lot of new business when I was at Ogilvy. And the thing you it's funny to say is, you had a shiny object, like you would walk in the door and go, Hey, you know, we're new to you. But here's the campaign that we think is right for you. If you're a digital agency, you would walk in and go, Hey, we're a digital agency, we're new to this relationship, here's additional marketing strategy that we think is really right for you. And it's the old like, if you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. So and there was a lot of success there. I mean, clients were going Oh, alright, great. Like, I'll, I'll take that. I think the world has changed now that now the clients are much more comfortable doing things themselves. And now that agencies have experienced a lot of churn, and there are a lot of agency people, unfortunately, who are, are on the street and are open to coming over to clients. Clients are becoming much more discerning, I think, I don't think I'll switch to my perspective, rather than talking and in general, what I, what I look for what makes me say, Wow, is when when an agency, walks in the door, and wants to just talk about my problems or wants to just talk about what I need, what are the challenges I'm facing? What does success look like, in my business? And that's the end of the conversation. Like we go, we have that conversation. And then they come back and go, alright, let's have another meeting, we've thought a bit about what you said, Let's talk more about your challenges and what your issues are, and what success looks like for you. And we have another meeting and I start to go these people are they get it like, and we're starting to edge towards? What's the answer? What's the solution I need, but it's a very consultative sell. It's very much a,
you know, focused on on me my business, it's not coming with the answer. And I found that there are very few agencies I've dealt with who do that there's still very much a tendency to go, this is what we're good at, let us talk to you about what we're good at. And I think there's the move in house has caused a panic in agencies, that for a lot of them has made them double down on that thing that they do. So it's they're almost like, Alright, we've got to get sharper about if I'm a digital media agency, I've got to really hone my credentials, I've got a really sharp and here's the client, here's the digital thing that I offer. And if and I want to be as clear and precise and priced properly on that digital thing. And and they're coming at me with that, and I'm going, why do you think I need that? Like, I don't even I may think I need that. But I but you haven't done it, you haven't spent any time understanding me my business, my need, you're just come and telling me, here's the thing, I think you need it. And and so I think there's this this horrible cycle that's going on where agencies are realizing that clients are bringing stuff in house, they're panicking and going, we have to become specialized in something so that we can really fit into that niche, the clients still outsource. And so they're coming with this really niche offering. And it's, it's not what we want, it's what I want, I want a partner, I want someone who's going to walk in the door. I'll give you an example. We we work with an agency right now, who's been great. And I didn't I was introduced to them through a prior relationship. I didn't think I needed an agency. I thought we were covering most of what we needed in house. And I sat with our principal, and he basically said, What's your biggest issue? And I started kind of rambling on about it. And he was really quite aggressive about it and going no, if you had $1 to place on solving a problem, where would you place it? And I was like, interesting. And we he really kind of shepherded me through to you know what I think I actually need I think I actually need this, like this would This is my problem. This would solve it and, and it was a beautiful moment, because then he was like, you know what we do that? Like we have that here. You know, here's what it is. Here's who runs it, here's how much it costs and and we're doing a lot of that with him right now and to it but it was it was only through that taking the time having the patience and being the right mindset to come in and really spend time with me that I would go Yeah, okay, I got that. And I think there are still going to be agencies that can never be replicated internally. So a you know, global media, buying agency can still rock up to us and go, Hey, we spend, yeah, or we buy $50 billion worth of media for our clients. And so we can offer you this level of discount on your rate that no one else can offer. We're never going to be able to do that. So those sort of offerings will always outsource the very, very specialized stuff that, you know, we will probably still continue to outsource. But so that when the bulk of the agency world, I don't, I don't see, I don't see a need for their thing, I see a need for really smart partners who can come have those conversations with me.
Tom Ollerton 25:43
So the idea of the consultative sell, if you like, and the agency principle, talking you through, that sounds fantastic. And I having worked at agencies for years know that there's so many people in all of those agencies that would love to consult with someone in your position, whether it's Lenovo, or at any company of that size, that would be an amazing meeting to get. And I hear you absolutely the showing up with the shiny new object and doubling down on that isn't necessarily the right way to go. But to ask you about your problems, what your challenges is the right way to go. But the issues that agencies will say that are listening to this is how do I even get in that room? You need something to get into that room? And just being interesting. And having the ability to ask that question isn't isn't making anyone unique? Like anyone can ask that question. Obviously, the answers will be different. So I'm curious to know, what is it that gets on your radar to even get someone in that position?
Quinn O'Brien 26:48
I challenged one thing you said which is that? I don't think that anyone I don't think the most senior account people within agencies have the background to ask the right questions. I think having having been a senior account, person and agency, I wouldn't have I think the people who asked the right questions are the ones who have worked on both sides. So I think the the idea of agencies really looking at people who have worked on the client side, and putting them in, in very seasoned roles in very senior roles within the agency, would be a fabulous move for me to sit down with someone who is at a large agency was is pitching me on their business, but who has sat in my seat at p&g Unilever, at HP at Dell at Apple as a big company, but now now really is wrapping the agency, but is able to come in and, and have the conversations that that isn't necessarily about marketing that is about business. That's about what your business trying to do. What's your product development cycle? What's your roadmap look like? How are you going to drive margin? How are you gonna drive premium, like all these conversations that generally agency leads, they don't start that far back. And it's not something you can necessarily, you know, kind of train them on, it's something that that they'd have to live. So I do think that the ability of an agency lead or an agency principal or an account lead, to have the right conversations is it's quite a, it's quite a specialized thing. And I think one of the thing agencies could do is really look at those people who are walking in the room with clients, and make sure that there's a true, they have a true ability to empathize and from their experience. So I think that's one thing, which is I think that you really need to focus on who those people are. But in in terms of getting in the door, it's like any networking, it's like getting a job, the when, when my counterpart who I used to work with at another company calls me and goes, you got to talk to this agency that brilliant, or you've got to talk to this woman. She's, she's sharp, that gets a meeting immediately like that, is that sort of referral. So the idea of having as an agency person, having your current clients refer you to other clients? is all I won't say the only way to get in there, but almost the only way to get in there. Because any anything else feels like Alright, I got to why would I? Why would I have this meeting? What is it about you that's different from the other 15 agencies who are all reaching out on LinkedIn or you know, cold calling, or whatever it is, but if it's a trusted person on my side, go and you got to talk to this woman. She's brilliant. Every every time I'd take that.
Tom Ollerton 29:44
Quinn, that is an excellent comment. And but unfortunately, we're gonna have to leave it there. So I always ask this question into the podcast, but it's gonna sound really weird in the context of the last couple of minutes of our chat, but I always ask what makes a Really great LinkedIn message to you that you're likely to respond to.
Quinn O'Brien 30:07
I think that it, it's got to be something with context I get, it's sort of similar to what we've been talking about, I get a lot of LinkedIn messages that are just Hey, you know, I run this network of digital agencies, I think we could be really relevant to you, we'd love to talk and have no interest. I got one the other day that the, the first line was just said, Arnie Becker, which is the name of the guy on LA l=Law, who I wanted to be. And I read it. And I responded to it, because the person had listened to a podcast that I was on, had heard that story had registered it. And now was also smart enough to be using that as the hook to go, Oh, hang on a sec. All right, this is interesting. I want to read this. Now, they actually had a really interesting thing that they wanted to talk about. So you can't just you know, you can't cheat it. But using that it's marketing, using that hook of where that stopped me where it's funny guy didn't say that. But it's like, I had that wow moment where I was like, wow, that person really thought this one through, like, that's pretty funny, like well done. And so it, it was just really good marketing on their part, they hooked me. And then the thing they wanted to talk about was relevant as well, they'd gone through my background, and saw what I was doing at Lenovo in some depth, and just came out and said, Hey, I think this might be a gap for you. We fill that gap. Are you interested? And so it was I was kind of like, Alright, that was clever. And this person seems like someone who might be someone I could have that sort of deeper conversation with. And I think that's a you know, really spend your time do some research and then try to find that that wow, hook, that's going to make someone go. That's clever. Like, that's really good. I want to I want to learn more about this person.
Tom Ollerton 32:08
So ironically, is a personalized digital ad that goes yeah, totally marketing works. Thank God. Quinn, we gotta we got to leave it there. But thank you so much for your time.
Quinn O'Brien 32:19
Thanks, Tom. Appreciate it.