Episode 131 / Jordan McDowell / Co-op / Lead Communications Planning & Media Optimisation Manager
Podcast: The XR Experience That We All Need to Know About
Jordan McDowell is the Lead Communications Planning & Media Optimisation Manager for the Co-op, where he focuses on creating unique, useful and convenient experiences for users online. This is why his Shiny New Object is extended reality – the next step after augmented and virtual reality, and the emerging trend in technological developments online.
Jordan’s career expanded into marketing from an initial foray into journalism and he’s never regretted it. He says his true passion is to work with “content, words and pictures” – and that’s exactly what he does in his role at the Co-op. As a “communicator and marketeer outright,” Jordan is always searching for the best way to capture customers’ attention with his messages.
When I asked Jordan about his top marketing tip, he explained that his experience showed him that “It’s not our customer’s job to care about our message” – which is sometimes easy to forget when producing lots of marketing content. Instead, he thinks brands need to start by thinking that no one cares about their marketing messages, so that they get their content to be as sharp and as interesting as possible. This also leads brands to pay more attention to where they share that content.
Jordan’s Shiny New Object is extended reality – the next step after AR and VR. Looking at terminology, XR is basically an umbrella term for whatever comes next, the “X” standing for “we don’t know what the next step will be.” This reflects the rapidly changing technology in the online space and the exciting new opportunities that keep coming up.
Is XR in danger of making brands forget about getting the basics right? Not according to Jordan. He thinks “there are no ‘nice to have’s anymore” – everything needs to be worked on, from basic direct customer communication to the new and innovative methods brought on by XR. You can never know where the next opportunities come from. As Jordan puts it: “There’s a place for all media. The future is how they’ll all come together.”
To find out more Jordan’s favourite marketing books, his advice to students and his experience with using XR at the Co-op, listen to the podcast here.
Subscribe to the ‘Shiny New Object’ Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube and Soundcloud.
Transcript
The following is an automated transcription which is not 100% accurate but will give you an idea of what was said.
Tom Ollerton 0:00
Today's episode is brought to you by Media for All, which was set up to help encourage more black, Asian and other ethnic, talented to media and to provide a support and mentoring network to ensure talent flourishes in the media industry that we all love. If you're looking for a mentor or would like to mentor young ethnic talent, check them out at mediaforall.org.uk and it is all 100% free.
Hello, and welcome to the Shiny New Object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton and the founder of Automated Creative and this is a weekly podcast where I interview the industry's leaders and ask them about their vision for the future of the industry. And this week, I'm happy to say it's no different. I'm on a call with Jordan McDowell, who is lead communications planning and media optimization manager, at Co-op. Jordan, for those who are listening to this podcast who aren't familiar with who you are or what you do. Could you give them a bit of an overview?
Jordan McDowell 1:07
Of course. Hi, thank you so much for having me, longtime listener first time caller. I am a communicator. I'm a marketeer outright. I love communicating, I love words, pictures and the internet. So my career to date has kind of been a mishmash of all of those things. And straight out of uni I read English literature at the University of Manchester, I worked in journalism, adapting as a freelancer across digital print and broadcast radio a little bit. And eventually kind of found myself in general marketing and comms roles within fashion and retail, and various different organizations until I landed here at the Co op. And for those that are aware of Manchester or local to Manchester, you'll know Co Op is a big player here. We've been here for 175 years, you can't miss our enormous office in the city centre. So I've been at Co Op now for I think, coming on seven or so years. And I've worked in various different roles here across digital comms and social media and across comms planning strategy and media optimization more recently.
Tom Ollerton 2:22
So the job title sounds quite a long way away from journalism. Have you buried your artistic tendencies? Or have I read that wrong?
Jordan McDowell 2:32
No, it's probably quite true. I mean, it's all in the same ballpark in the sense that it's communication. It's words pictures on the internet, like I said, but yeah, you're right. I mean, I think coming out of like uni I was very much in the space of working in journalism and content creation on that side of the fence, if you like, particularly in the world of fashion. I worked a lot in doing a lot of internships and things like that within the fashion and retail space. In the Northwest. There's a lot of businesses now that were startups back then, like Boohoo, Misguided, now they're the big players paying up all the all the older brands. But yeah, I think I started to realize, as my career progressed, the common denominator around what I love to do was, you know, words, pictures and the internet. And that didn't necessarily mean I had to pigeonhole myself within journalism, I could expand into the wider sort of marketing mix, and I've never regretted expanding out. And, you know, working in the sort of journalistic field is always an option for anyone that I think works in marketing, whether it's something that you dabble in a little bit like you in setting up your own podcast, or if it's something that you return to later on. But for now, I'm quite happy with how it's gone.
Tom Ollerton 3:48
So, for someone who used to be a writer, I assume you're a reader. And do you read marketing books? Do you have any recommendations?
Jordan McDowell 3:58
I am a reader. I've got to admit, though, I do love reading. I love reading literature, I love reading fiction and a wide sort of array of different things when it comes to reading about your day job though I do find that a little hard because I think you know, we all work the hours that we work and and it's difficult to switch off. So that point on a Saturday afternoon when you're just about you know, put yourself away from emails and things. So don't take for marketing book, I would rather walk around town with a rusty nail in my boot. And so I do find that quite hard, which is why I really like things like your podcast because they're short and snappy, and I can fit it in without feeling like it's eating out, you know, eating too much of my life away from me. And that being said, you can't get away from needing to do a little bit of reading if you are kind of progressing in in marketing comms.. So I love to recommend the book "Content Design" by Sarah Richards and I had the benefit of working with her Little bit at her stint here at Co Op actually. She originated the concept of content design whilst working at the government Digital Service GDS for the government, and has since gone on to kind of spread the gospel far and wide. It's a fascinating book, it's a read, you literally read in 45 minutes, it's it's been written in almost like a blog. So blog post format. And it's a fascinating introduction to the concept of digital content design, and how those principles can be adopted to better content across any channel. It is not, you know, something that you can wholesale take on board for anything and everything you do in terms of content and words and pictures. But it is a really useful way of understanding the nuances of an online user versus, you know, someone that might read a print magazine, for example.
Tom Ollerton 5:51
So just to backtrack a little bit. So content design, I think I know what that is. The book, but can you just kind of sort of read the back page type of thing.
Jordan McDowell 6:05
Absolutely. And you'll have to read the book, for sure, I promise you of all the books to be recommended. It's super short, and really, really worthwhile. But essentially, content design is the principle of designing webs, web contents, primarily web pages, that's why it's not you know, it, the principles that she discusses in her book aren't necessarily relevant for if you're going to take that onto Instagram, you know, but broadly speaking, it's about creating webpage content. And about creating it with the user in mind and understanding what you should create on that page based on that user, how they utilize that page in the here and now and iterating on as opposed to assuming what they need, or more likely deciding what you need to communicate as the web site owner, whether you're a brand or whatever it is, and just putting a load of stuff out there that people aren't going to consume aren't going to use, you know, not adhering to even just the way that people scroll on devices and are looking for a call to action. And it comes down to those really interesting, quite simple principles about how to make words work on a website. And it is really that's it in a nutshell, essentially.
Tom Ollerton 7:23
So if you're going to give advice to a smart, driven student who wanted a break in industry and follow in your footsteps, what would you be saying to them?
Jordan McDowell 7:34
Following my footsteps, I'd probably say, don't do that, think bigger.
For a general student looking to get into marketing, I would probably say, looking back at my career, and certainly my early career, I'd say, say yes, and be nice. And I think those two things will serve you very, very well. If you're already driven if you're already interested in marketing, to understand a little bit about what it can offer, I think saying yes to any and every single opportunity that comes your way and not being passive forging them for yourself and putting yourself in the right situations to be to be called upon for those opportunities, whether it be you know, an internship, or helping out a friend's business or anything like that, you know, be ready, be available, be be, be ready to take those opportunities and say yes, and always, always, always have learned this the hard way away, as a, as a young student, being nice to people because you never know who's going to offer you your next job. All of the jobs I've got early on. Because I was I basically crashed every industry party I could in Manchester as a as a like final year student I, I never paid for a drink or a meal on a Thursday night, which is generally press night in Manchester, because I was just making sure that I was on every guest list I could possibly blog my way on to so that I could meet people like commissioning editors or prs that were looking for freelance support, anything like that. That's how I got on to the the sort of internship at BBC, that's how I ended up writing for local magazines here. That's how I ended up getting my first full time job out of uni because I was just out and about and saying yes and being nice to people.
Tom Ollerton 9:29
I can understand why that works for you in the short amount of conversations that we've had. But how would you advise an introvert to do the same thing that would rather stick a rusty nail in their booth and walk around town and go to a press night every Thursday?
Jordan McDowell 9:47
That's a very good question. And I think whilst I'm not an introvert, I think it's fair to say and that's not to say that because I do have extrovert tendencies, that I necessarily find it easy to blag my way into a party where I know no one and I have no, absolutely no reason to be there. But I'm there to meet people and to, you know, pass my business card around and all that, it's not to say that I find that just absolute second nature, you know, sometimes you've got to fake it till you make it. So I think introverts sometimes need to put an extrovert cap on when it comes to that kind of thing. But that's not to say that my way of doing things is the only way you know, if you are slightly more reserved and quieter. There's other ways that you can get your, your name out there, especially on the internet. You know, if you contribute to or create content, whether it's a blog, way back in the day, that's what we all did, we have blogs, and or you comment on the latest happenings within the industry on even in just LinkedIn posts, you know, you can do it in a way that feels a little bit safer. But you are still getting your your name out there and meeting people, I just think sometimes that might be a little bit harder, because in a way, your extroverts are doing that as well as meeting face to face. So you know, it's better to play both fields, I think.
Tom Ollerton 11:10
So, in your career, what has been the best marketing tip that you've received, either early doors or later on, but the thing you find yourself coming back to, and sharing most often.
Jordan McDowell 11:25
And I've got this so many, but I think one that really sticks in me. And I've got to admit, I've no idea where I heard I don't even know if I just thought of it, even if anyone said it to me, or if it's just something I've come to learn. But I think some of my colleagues might laugh if they listen to this. They don't really cringe. But I think it's useful when you work in Marketing Communications, particularly for consumer brands, and big consumer brands to start with the idea that no one cares. No one, no one cares what you've got to say, what you're advertising, no matter how great you think your deal is, no matter how wonderful that new product range is, you know, start from the idea that no one cares, because I think then you're going to do a better job at making sure you make that piece of comms as relevant and as interesting as it possibly can be to into even half a second of that customers time in a day, which is all you really need. And it's also going to inform your, you know, your actual comms and media plan because you're going to really sort of stress test the idea that if no one cares about this message that I'm, I really have to get out there because it is an important thing for us to do. You're going to make really hard choices about where you put that message as much as how you even craft that message. And I think that's quite an important thing. Because when we work in the industry we do it's our job to live and breathe the brand. It's our job to to care passionately about what we do. Otherwise, why are we bothering, but it's not our customer's job to care. And sometimes we forget that.
Tom Ollerton 13:06
That is excellent advice.
This episode of the Shiny New Object podcast is brought to you in partnership with MAD//Fest. Whether it's live in London or streamed online to the global marketing community, you can always expect the distinctive and daring blend of fast paced content, startup innovation pitches, and unconventional entertainment from MAD//Fest events, you'll find me causing trouble on stage recording live versions of this podcast and sharing a beer with the nicest and most influential people in marketing. Check it out at www.madfestlondon.com.
So we're gonna move on to your shiny new object, which is, let me see how did you phrase it exactly. Before we were chatting, it was extended reality. So I didn't write in my notes foolish. Extended reality. That sounds so cool. What is your shiny new object extended reality? And how can marketers take advantage of it?
Jordan McDowell 14:19
I have quite a few caveats before we start talking about this. A, and I do worry about whether or not it's even shiny and new. And even if it's a thing. So I don't know how, whether or not it qualifies this podcast at all, but I'm gonna go for it. And the other thing I want to caveat is I am not a web developer. I'm not a designer. And you know, I do not know how these things work. I just understand them from the perspective of a marketeer and how it could provide useful opportunities for us in marketing calm so I've just said that now. No one told me to I'm saying there'll be maybe web designers that are listening rolling their eyes when I started trying to explain what this is, but essentially We've all heard of things like virtual reality, and augmented reality probably a little bit more recently, essentially extended reality or xR is the kind of umbrella term to bring all of that together. x in xR doesn't apparently necessarily stand for extended actually kind of stands for an x, meaning we don't know what the next version is, you know, is it augmented and mixed reality, which is quite an interesting way of looking at it because it is so fast moving and applications of it in day to day life are emerging all the time. Some of them are more brilliant than others. Some of them are short lived, some of them evolve. But it really is very, very early days of this technology. And so that's kind of what I think is quite interesting about the concept of xR, and how it's really as an umbrella term for all the possibilities that are available to us. And what I get really excited about this is we've been kind of Co Op at least, been dabbling with this more recently, and starting to look at it as an opportunity for us in the future. And like a lot of brands, I think, we come to New sort of digital opportunities and capabilities, and we come to it generally. And maybe you challenge me on this, but generally, I think we come to it from the perspective of how can we make the internet more useful and convenient for our customers by applying this new technology. So you can see it from quite a transactional perspective. So for example, and sort of mixed reality, you know, case studies and blue sky thinking, you know, that kind of stuff that you can find, when you Google, it is all around how in the future, it may actually mean that when we go into like a convenience store, the whole convenience store layout is actually augmented to, to our own sort of personalized experience. So based, for example, in the future, if you like, you go into a co op your account number, we would know that your account number, and when you go in, by using your wearable tech, whether it's a Google lens, or whatever it is, the all of the deals on the shelf would change based on your preferences. And so yeah, I mean, there's fascinating examples of how this is actually being applied even now in China. And, you know, as a test for what might be. And that in itself is a fascinating and exciting thing. I mean, of course, we are quite a long way off that actually being useful, you know, because it presents so many issues for a user in reality today, because a we don't have that kind of technology available to us to actually make it happen properly. And even if we did kind of bundle it together, it wouldn't be a convenient experience for anyone, it would be really, really slow and glitchy and awkward. But it's an interesting concept to aim toward, right. But I think looking at these kinds of sort of technologies purely from the transactional is probably a bit sort of narrow, sort of short, sighted, narrow minded, and I think actually, we should start looking at them a little bit more as their experiences and kind of the fun and thrill of what these things could bring to brands beyond how they could maybe sell as product sell product in the here and now. So obviously I'm sort of moving away from the sort of short term sales driving type of stuff into long term brand. And this is where I get really interested in what this might bring to the future for brands that really understand brand comm so your Burberry's your Nike, Disney's your Virgin's because those brands understand how the long, in order to build relationships with customers in the long term and grow their brand in the long term. They need to offer you as sort of exclusive experiences to their customers with their brand in every single touchpoint that they have to kind of explain and reiterate why that customer's choice to engage with that brand or shop with that brand or book a holiday with that brand or whatever was the right one. So a great example that's the years has been one of the best examples on the high street is the region straight store for Burberry the way that they make use of their digital screens and mirror technology to bring to life their products. in an interesting way. It's already taken on the principles of like virtual reality, just one step behind because it's making use of screens as opposed to actual virtual reality technology. But it wouldn't take a lot for you to take that next step further. And you know, Christopher Bailey did that with Burberry years ago. So, can you imagine what something like an augmented or mixed reality experience that Burberry brought to customers could mean in the near future whether it's taking the consumer on the journey of their seasonal lookbook you know, forget fashion shows forget you know watching the Instagram behind the scenes Stories like actually, you could just take your customer straight into the mind of your creative director and let them play and let them experience it, let them do what they want to do in that environment, whether it's a fully immersive virtual experience or something maybe a little bit more accessible. I just think that's fascinating prospect for brands that get brand and brands that want to grow their brand.
Tom Ollerton 20:25
I've got a question. This is really frustrating. Right? Okay, so start with a tough one. So I think, in my experience of being involved in advertising, technology, and innovation, and running an innovative ad tech business, is that the secret goal of any innovation is to become boring. Because all innovation has to start as very exciting and sexy in you and bleeding edge. But in order for it to make any money, it's got to become commonplace. And in order for it to come commonplace, it's just got to deliver something regularly without falling over. Example, always give us the light switch. It's one point that was the coolest thing in the world. And now it's the most boring thing in the world. But like, it's, it's everywhere. And so I what the question is, is what is going to be the next xR thing that becomes commonplace and boring and useful. For example, I used to work at a digital agency 10 years ago, and they were hugely augmented reality, augmented reality business cards, like, I was selling AR as high as I could everywhere I went. But it didn't really manifest until relatively recently on things like snap and Facebook, like filters, essentially. So whether that's doggy ears, or like, I don't know, like a Daft Punk helmet, or, you know, whatever film franchise decides to create a face filter. Like that has almost become commonplace now, but it's still kind of a gimmick. Whereas my partner, she was buying some sunglasses, and she says, oh, which one? Which of these sunglasses? Do you like me? And she showed me her face with like, an AR glasses kind of wobbling around on on her nose semi convincingly. So where where is the next mainstream application of xR, gonna come from?
Jordan McDowell 22:25
It totally hear what you're saying. I totally agree. And you know, innovation must become boring in order for it to become mainstream and genuinely useful. However, I think that that idea really lives with that sort of transactional application of these digital technologies and in that space, because my challenge to that is, what's boring about a Disney theme parks, there's nothing, there's nothing commonplace about that experience. It's an absolutely ridiculously artificial, immersive physical experience that you go in and essentially, pay your money to cross the gate and to live and breathe the Disney brand for however long you're running around that theme park. And I think my, where I'm getting that with, with the potential for extended reality within the space of brand communications is what how can brands Create Virtual extended theme park experiences, if you'd like that, speak to their brand and make that brand make sense in that kind of fun and thrilling environment that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with their products and services in the here and now it's more about experiencing that brand. And if that is therefore where extended reality could go and how brands could start to apply it beyond just the transactional? I don't think it therefore needs to become boring. I think the whole point of it actually is to never be boring.
Tom Ollerton 23:52
Well, I like that. Okay, so so next one is, I spend a fair bit of time working and creating content with Jerry taken at GSK. Hi, Jerry, if you're listening to this, and his mantra, and it's also been reflected in thinkers like Tom Goodwin, for example. It's just like, forget all of the XR stuff get your basics right. Does your mobile website load it all your email? campaigns? It doesn't it? Does anyone ever open them? You know, there's your as your search up with eight. Where does this sit in the grand scheme of things when most brands if they're honest, aren't delivering joined up user or consumer experiences from Digital to in store to wherever else? Do you think that this is so important that needs to be done alongside those things? Or is this a nice to have once the basics have been done?
Jordan McDowell 24:49
That's a really good question. And I don't know if I have an answer. I think all I have is another question. Which is I think this is I think this is the kind of thing that brands are grappling with now, in terms of, you know, how we apply scarcer and scarcer resources, how we innovate in a world that's moving faster and faster, you know, innovations that we plan to do last year, all of a sudden, either completely dead in the water or commonplace, and we've missed it now. So I do wonder sometimes, you know, and I don't think you can necessarily look at these things and say, well, it's a nice to have, therefore, we're going to ignore it. Because I don't think anything's really a nice to have in this world anymore. I think you need to approach something like, you know, attend 2017, if you like, absolutely get your basics right, to an extent, but don't take your eye off what the next thing could be. And I think, mixed in with that, I think it's an interesting kind of question, start asking ourselves as brands around, I'm going to make a really half assed attempt to explain myself now. So do call me out, this makes no sense. But the, you know, there's a theory of evolution, right? That you, you go from, from, you know, sort of single celled organism all the way up to a human. And one theory is that it happens all the way over time. And it's incremental changes all the way through generations and generations, over millions and millions of years. But then there's also the theory that within that there's actually like spurts, where all of a sudden, the sort of evolutionary path will jump ahead further than we expected. And it kind of like leap frogs, a few of the kind of expected stepping stones of that evolutionary pattern. So I do wonder, sometimes, should we put as much focus in the basics, and risk the future, when actually those basics may no longer be viable or important to us in the near future. So Exactly. One example of that might be and I'm not saying that this is the example but you know, put in all your effort into making your SEO strategy as absolutely watertight as it possibly can be, and your organic rankings as high as they can possibly possibly be on all of your, your hit list of keywords, but then completely missing, what Voice Search may bring to the party, and run the risk of essentially then having to do the whole Voice Search thing from the basics five years later than all of your competitors. So it's a hard one to fathom. Like, which things do you put your effort behind? Or which things you've left all away? And which opportunities do you test and learn from? And which ones do you have to say no, to? It's a really hard decision, but I don't think it's a case of just focus on the basics 100% of the time, I don't think that can be the I don't think that can be the answer.
Tom Ollerton 27:48
So last provocation for you. So in terms of xR, mixed reality, or whether that's virtual or augmented or blended on mixed or whatever it is, what that is, is essentially providing some of the media over the top of what exists as in it's a new level of reality. That's but my I wonder, is how is that any different to audio? Right? You put on a pair of speakers, especially the speakers allow the outside world and as well, that music in some ways is a completely evolved version of an alternative reality, right? When you put some music on in your head, not only can you hear potentially instruments, whether they're synthetic or real, but you're also kind of transported directly that how an artist wants you to feel to a greater or lesser extent. So are is it really any different to things like audio or even photography, like Photoshop, it is its own mixed reality, we have an image that the photographer took, and then a whole other team of researchers or stylist or whatever, change that image. So it's, it's a heightened version of reality like is, is the the mixed reality or the XR that you're talking about? really that different to the advancements in static photography, for example, and things like audio as in music?
Jordan McDowell 29:17
That's a really good question. I mean, I think it all comes down to the application does it and I think it's difficult for us to kind of fathom what this kind of world of possibility could mean because it's so new and there are so few examples for us to use. And we all talk about Pokemon Go is a good example of augmented reality, which is where, you know, digital assets are superimposed on on the kind of physical world if you like, versus mixed reality where they would, they would the physical and the digital would more readily interact with one another and the to blend more, which is that the sort of the newer of the pack if you like, and then the Virtual Reality is where you, you know, you are in a completely fake virtual environment. And, you know, you're you're running in a field playing the game on Xbox, and you're going to follow up your coffee table, because it does not account for your coffee table being there, you know. So I think it does come down to the application of of those various different nuances within the extended reality kind of spectrum, and how you apply the opportunity against the experience that you're trying to get away. And so like, for example, a sort of test version that we did a co op was, at the end of last year, we created an augmented reality experience, which enabled people in the absence of being able to get together physically in our stores the way that we invite current members and colleagues and customers to do every year to celebrate the millions of pounds that we all collectively give to local causes. You know, it's been 10 and cake, it's it's very cute Tea Party, it's a huge opportunity for cat to demonstrate our difference every year. Obviously, in the pandemic, we couldn't do that. So we did lots of different things. Partner with Joe's virtual pop quiz, if anyone's been doing them, over the pandemic, so far, they're amazing. Every Thursday, we did lots of different things to try to take the party online, if you like. And one of those was the augmented experience where members could open up the experience on their mobile web browser, find out what local causes in their commute that their local community had received from Co Op members that year, by interacting with augmented reality balloons and popping them and blowing them away to reveal the the totals, it's it was quite a simpler application created by Kenny Carter connect in Manchester. And it, it was a great demonstration of the celebrate tree element of Co Op membership and how by coming together, we can we can do great things. And it's a great example of the co op brand and cooperativism in action if you like. Now, I'm not saying it's the absolute best example of that. But I think it all comes down to the application, the story you're trying to tell. So I don't think that, you know, augmented reality killed the radio star. I think there's a place for all of these media. And I think the future is how they come together in new and interesting ways. I don't know if that was an answer. If that was a blog? That's my answer.
Tom Ollerton 32:22
I think it was beautifully put. And we're gonna have to leave it there, which is crushing, because I would like to was right on time. with Jordan, if someone wanted to write you a killer message on LinkedIn, that would definitely get a response, what would be in it?
Jordan McDowell 32:36
Oh, that's a good one. Keep it short and sweet. I think I get a lot of LinkedIn messages that I have to scroll through and you're not going to get my attention. Keep it short and sweet. And show that you've said that you've listened to this podcast, then I'll definitely respond.
Tom Ollerton 32:53
Lovely, Jordan, thank you so much.
Jordan McDowell 32:55
Thank you.