Episode 129 / General Mills / Mark Brown / Marketing Director, Northern Europe
Podcast: Embracing Virtual Working for Boundary-Less Collaboration
Mark Brown is the Marketing Director for Northern Europe at General Mills, where he oversees the marketing activation of 15 brands. A “food guy through and through,” he’s built his marketing career in the food industry, with a passion that runs in the family. His Shiny New Object is boundary-less collaboration, encouraged by the discovery of benefits of virtual working during the pandemic.
Throughout his career, Mark confesses that he’s always had a passion for delivering great work, in the hope of being remembered for something he has designed, whether it’s a campaign or brilliant packaging. However, as he’s progressed to more senior roles, he’s been interested in creating an environment for others to do great work in, too.
“Encourage a culture of risk-taking within your team” is one of Mark’s marketing tips for managers, giving the team the support to try new things and make mistakes. This is how innovation can really grow and how the team will be encouraged to spend their time in the best possible way.
Spending time effectively and in pursuit of your passion is what brings us to Mark’s Shiny New Object: boundary-less collaboration. Thanks to the measures put in place for businesses to continue their work during lockdowns across the world, Mark believes we’ve now uncovered two massive benefits for virtual working. Firstly, more people can collaborate on the work they might not have previously had access to for logistical or seniority reasons. Secondly, businesses can become more agile as they collaborate with workers around the world who can pick up briefs in different time zones. Work is now moving around the clock.
What does this do for marketing and office life? On the one hand, Mark thinks we will inevitably swing back to some parts of office life, as humans thrive in face-to-face settings.
However: “We’ve now seen the benefits of virtual working.” Time can be spent better than commuting to the office for meetings, when you can do them remotely, for example.
What won’t change is the fact that great work quality continues to be important and that the passion for your work needs to come through in your interactions with clients and customers. Through boundary-less collaboration, however, we will be able to bring in more minds in the ideation process and spend most of our work time on the things that truly drive value and that we’re passionate about.
To find out more about Mark’s favourite marketing books, his advice to new starters in marketing and his experience of boundary-less collaboration during the pandemic, listen to the podcast here.
Subscribe to the ‘Shiny New Object’ Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube and Soundcloud.
Transcript
The following transcript has been generated automatically and might not be 100% accurate, but it will give you a good idea of what was said.
Tom Ollerton 0:00
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Hello, and welcome to the shiny new object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton. I'm the founder of automated creative and this is a podcast about the future of marketing every week or so I have the pleasure and the privilege of interviewing one of our industry's leaders, and this week is absolutely no different. I'm on a call with Mark Brown, who is marketing director, Northern Europe General Mills. Mark, for those of the audience who don't know who you are and what you do. Could you give us a brief overview of your career to date?
Mark Brown 1:04
Certainly, Tom. So my name is Mark Brown and I'm marketing director for General Mills in Northern Europe. So that covers UK, Germany. And Ireland as we draw the map at General Mills and I look after the marketing activation of 15 brands across chilled, frozen and ambient categories brands such as Old El Paso, Haagen Dasz, Nature Valley through to kids' yoghurt brands.
Tom Ollerton 1:36
Fantastic. And what were you doing before that? What's your path to taking on such a massive role?
Mark Brown 1:41
I'm a food guy through and through. So I've always worked in the food industry, and predominantly in marketing. So before General Mills, I'd worked at Kraft Foods, worked at Kerry foods. And I started my career at Weetabix, started many years ago as a territory sales representative. But then, but then quickly, obviously knew that I wanted to get into marketing and was fortunate enough to get my first marketing role. Weetabix and food really runs through my family. My mother was a baker, Uncle a butcher, grandma and granddad run a cafe. And I've always been fascinated by food and have a great passion for food. And with that, that brand as well. I always remember as a youngster that the favorite parts of watching TV or watching the adverts and not necessarily the programs, I was always captivated by these great kind of short films that were in the middle of long, boring TV programs that are often entertaining and funny and very memorable. So that's, that's a potted history of I guess why I'm doing marketing in Indian food companies. It's from a kind of a long standing, passion for food. And then and then a look for advertising. Look for great work. And then I've been lucky enough to work at some some really great global businesses. And also some very iconic kind of British share businesses as well.
Tom Ollerton 3:09
So I'd like to know if you're a marketing book reader or not. And if you are a marketing book reader, which of those books that you recommend, most often are the ones that you've revisited over the years.
Mark Brown 3:22
Yeah, so um, I do read, I find that that generally, the best way that I learn and develop is, is reading books. And then also, just for the most it's kind of on the job, like experience. There is one book that I always, certainly as I'm talking to young marketeers, I always point them in the direction of this book. I also think it's a good book for people like me who, who've been around a bit just to refresh and and kind of reengage with, with what marketing I think he's all about. And that book is a book called "Where's the sausage?" by David Taylor. I worked with David Taylor, a number of jobs ago, he has a brand consultancy called Brand Gym and he really helps brands kind of turbo charge their marketing plans in their marketing strategy. And also his organization helps with innovation as well. And what his book is all about, where's the sausage, is effectively putting the substance behind the sizzle of marketing of brand management and I really described it to anyone that asked me that it's a real kind of brand management one on one I find it a real brand management one on one and the way David brings it alive isn't through a load of kind of theory. It's through an actual story of a bit of a marketing team and, and how they go about kind of changing the path for for their brand. So it's a it's it's that book that I always recommend to anyone that's that's right at the start of it. A marketing and it's that book that I go back to time and time again, just just when I find that, that I need a bit more kind of guidance in terms of getting back to the basics,
Tom Ollerton 5:11
And what is the key lesson from that book that you'll never forget?
Mark Brown 5:16
I think it's, it, it's kind of two things and very simply, it's around the sizzle is important is in the marketing, sizzle and the creativity and the equity but everything's got to be geared towards selling more stuff in that as a, as a as a marketeer. My ultimate role is to sell more stuff. And there's a whole host of different ways of getting there. And, you know, being consumer first building equity, doing great creative work, all of that stuff is very important. But it all needs to lead to selling more stuff.
Tom Ollerton 5:57
So, it's really great that you are recommending titles like that to people who are just starting their career, but I want you to think forward to the end of your career many years from now, how would you want people to remember it?
Mark Brown 6:14
So it's a great question. When I first got into marketing, as I said earlier on, what always fascinated me, when I was used to was was advertising and I always found it really entertaining and deeply engaging. And I was always able to remember, my favorite ads, and I'm sure everyone that works in marketing is, is it is the same as well. And then and that's really what what I guess powered me early on in my career. And you know, if you were to ask me 10 years ago, what I want my career to, to be remembered by, it was for doing great work, and I took a great sense of pride from from seeing my work in very public places, whether that be a packaging design I worked on a piece of communication or creative, an actual product, it would just give me a great sense of satisfaction to to see my work in a in a public in a public space with a great sense of pride. Now, as I've moved on in my career, where I want to be remembered by and or how I want to be remembered by is, is really been able to provide the environment to do that. And I think that, you know, when all of our careers have finished in general heading into retirement, I think the things that will, that will stick in our mind won't necessarily be the great work that we've done, and the actual tangible stuff that we produced. But it'll be the people that we worked with in the relationships that we formed, and the impact that those people have in our lives. And I think certainly as I move on in my career, now I want to have an impact where people feel that they can create brave marketing that they can do remarkable marketing and that they can take risks, and Gamble's it's it's much more about providing the environment. So if you were to ask me what I want my career to remember to be remembered, like, you know, in the next 10 to 20 years, it's about providing that environment that people I work with to to be brave and do some great work.
Tom Ollerton 8:28
And when you say great work, what do you mean? Do you mean work? The thing is great from a creative perspective, or do you mean effectiveness? results driven work?
Mark Brown 8:36
I think I think all of that. Yeah, I think you know, I said right at the start was when I was talking about the book it's it's about selling more stuff. But equally at noise, it's sometimes work will be done but it's just about brand fame or about really kind of focused on equity or or engaging tissues that particular time around a particular cultural moment. So I think I think great work and can color can have many different areas and it can be effective work, it can be work that really increases brand fame, it can be it can be work that that is very short term in terms of its impact. But but basically work that has an impact is what's important. And then whether that's a whole host of kind of different measures of you like I'm really interested in that.
Tom Ollerton 9:32
And so what are you doing to create that environment now?
Mark Brown 9:37
Yeah, I think the very simple thing I'm doing is really encouraging a culture of risk taking within the teams that that I work with, and quite simply trying to make them feel like I've got them covered and got their backs and that they have the support to make mistakes. And take risks. And I think that that culture in itself will then allow people to, to do that. We, we also have things our organization where, where we encourage and reward marketing innovation. As an example, we retreat our budgets in in a way that's, that allows our teams to invest behind marketing innovation as well, in terms of just in terms of the way that we can have them ring fenced, if you like, certain amounts of money, that that can only be spent on marketing innovation. So I think that there's a whole host of kind of softer, more cultural things that is basically around allowing our people to take risks and to be braver than there's a whole host of kind of functional elements, if you like, where we carve out the resources, to be able to do it as well. And then it's just about connecting our teams to, to people that can help them be brave or remarkable or, or do things differently is, and that's not people, not just people in the marketing industry, but that could be people. from a cultural perspective, it could be people from all kinds of walks of life. So it's about creating the environment, and then ensuring that the resources are there to do it, as well.
Tom Ollerton 11:26
So before we move on to your shiny new object, I'm curious to know, what is your best marketing tip? What is that silver bullet or golden nugget of marketing advice that you tell people a lot? Or you heard recently?
Mark Brown 11:42
Yeah, I think, generally speaking, for me, the best tip I give to people is it fundamentally marketing, I think, revolves around three core areas, building your brand, with strong strategy and vision, running your business. And then and then finally leading and engaging all your stakeholders, and that's both kind of internal teams all the way through to, to consumers, customers. Any kind of stakeholder, and at a very simplistic level, for me, that's what marketing is about. And it's, it's, it's something that previous manager told me, but if you're building your brand, running your business well, and engaging your stakeholders, then then you won't go far wrong.
Tom Ollerton 12:34
And what? That, to me that sounds quite, quite complicated and a lot of work. So how do you know where to put your time and your energy? So I mean, presuming you can't do those things all day, every day? Or is that what you mean? Or is it a case of dividing your time equally across those things at different occasions, or dialing up or down different elements of the three at different times could just unpack that a little bit from?
Mark Brown 12:58
Yeah, of course, I think there's dialing it up and dialing it down at various points in, in time, but but certainly ensuring that I think that as a, as a, as a marketer, you I think what he's very much at the center, or a marketer, in a very consumer focused organization is very much front and center of that business, and occupy it should be. And I think doing all three of those things every day, is is not impossible, and it will be done in different ways and small ways. Like you might just have 10 minutes in the shower, or while you're walking, or I should do something to think about right? What direction my brain going, is that direction still relevant? What's the strategy equally, you might just grab five minutes and talk to somebody in manufacturing r&d, just about your brand and, and the vision and where it's going. So I don't necessarily see them as big as big ticket items all the time. But it's that that kind of constant conversation that I think one should be having with themselves every day in terms of how do you improve what you're doing in each of those three areas, and, and some days it'll be very small steps and think some days it'll be very big steps.
Tom Ollerton 14:31
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So we're at the halfway stage of the podcast now. We're gonna talk about your shiny new object, which is boundaryless collaboration, we were debating whether boundaryless was actually a word, but I think I know what it means. But can you explain to the audience what you see as boundaryless collaboration being?
Mark Brown 15:29
Yeah, of course. And then I think this is, again, another one of those areas, all of all things that that has been accelerated in, in the last, you know, nine to 10 months, for obvious reasons, and, and has been normalized as well, in terms of this, this becomes the kind of the new normal of the way of working in as we've gone through lock downs over the last nine or 10 months, and principally, I think what it's about is just really opening up collaboration. And clearly virtual working and virtual technology has allowed that in a, in a much greater way. But But what that is not allowed is that there's, there's no more boundaries now in the world. And because of technology, and because of the growing acceptance of that virtual working and the power of virtual working to, to get things done as as well as face to face. And then I'll give you an example in that you could be you know, it. Now in a virtual world, you could be working on a creative project, where we're during the day, you come up with strategies and the ideas, and really thinking about the brief and what you want to do, and then come kind of evening time, in country x, whatever country you're in, you can then send that brief to a creative team in country why on the opposite side of the world, and get the creative works on overnight. So you've got something to respond to first thing in the morning, when you're back at work. And I think that's always existed. And some some people have done it in, in, in great ways and others, but I think this new acceptance of virtual working the technology and the new virtual world we've we've got into it has, has really accelerated that. It's also allowing a lot more people as well to be involved in, in brainstorming, ideation sessions, development sessions, what, where normally, if they would come face to face, there will be various restrictions, you know, whether it be travel budgets, whether it be number of people in the room, or, or whatever it might be, and without find that collaboration really opens up, opens up the possibility of more people being involved, which I think is very important to have, from an osmosis perspective, certainly, for people that are new to marketing, I think I think they can get access now to to a lot of these kind of meetings and sessions that normally they will be precluded from because their boss would go or someone else would go and the cost of staying there or the actual logistics of it just wouldn't make it possible. So I think that's really, really interesting. And then for an organization like ours, that's a global organization, it's what it's allowed us to do is just bring more expertise into, into some of our sessions that they're in a face to face environment, we just wouldn't be able to do, because, obviously, it's very difficult to ship people around the world just for one or two hour meeting. But not everyone is virtual, it makes it a lot easier to get a lot more varied expertise in in one place at one time. So I just think that this whole kind of move to virtual and a different way of working is, is really going to lead to much, much stronger collaboration that that really, I think, first of all improves the quality of work because you can get more people working on it more expertise working on it, but it's also going to improve agility in that you won't need to wait you know, before things can be briefed or action or, or kind of worked on you. You just send them to areas of the country that shows the world side that that started our working day and things to be worked on whilst you're asleep. So I think that for me is is very exciting. We had an example this last week in my own organization where we were shooting a piece of creative in Kiev and and the technology we had superb , where my team could basically sit on their, on their computer on their laptop and see the full full sheet just like you were there. And then again, that I think that's a great example. We were able to take decisions in real time and, and make and, and make changes,
Tom Ollerton 20:19
Just give me a bit more detail on that technology. So what they were just seeing every shot that came out of the camera, or were they sick, and then they have like a 360 view, just give me a 360 view of the set?
Mark Brown 20:31
So it's a whole 360 view. So so in that view, they could see what the camera on the set receiving what the director was seeing. But then we're getting to see the whole kind of sets as well. So it wasn't it wasn't a live stream from the camera that was filming, it was a separate camera that that that was kind of looking at the whole set. So just as if you were there.
Tom Ollerton 20:53
And so how did that work with the director? Did they have like a voice? They'd have a zoom call in his ear to do stuff. How did that work?
Mark Brown 21:01
It was it was a live speech thing. Because while but obviously, my team went directing the director did, they're still the creatives in the middle and then still getting some kind of ordered ordered way. Otherwise, I think the director may have lost the plot.
Tom Ollerton 21:21
And so I'm curious to hear you say that it's a move to digital, do you think it's moved to digital or removed to remote? Or is it just a holiday from reality? How much of a swing back to normal? Or what how it used to be? Do you think there will be and how much of this will be retained? And, and? Or will it all be forgotten?
Mark Brown 21:45
Yeah, I think inevitably, there will be a swing back. I think just by human nature alone, I think as humans, I think we think we thrive generally speaking of, of kind of face to face contacting and collaboration and, and being social. And I also think it does bring value in, in some situations. But I think what we've seen, you know, we went into the in into this lockdown with a real uncertainty as as to how, you know, business would work in terms of a lot of businesses that were face to face. And that and I think we've come through it, seeing the potential for virtual. So I think there will be some natural swing back because because face to face is still good, right? It's not a bad thing. But I think we will see more and more virtual working. And I think there are certainly some things that are better suited to virtual working as well when everyone is virtual. So I think inevitably, there will be some swing back. But I think a lot of the new behaviors that we've seen of the last 9-10 months will will stick. Exactly. I think there's there's very good business reasons for them to stick.
Tom Ollerton 23:15
So what are the things in your working day that you don't want to see come back? And what are the things that you do want to see stay?
Mark Brown 23:27
Yeah, I think very simply, you know, there are times in my working day when everyone is saying the same meeting room, and mainly being kind of presented. And it's it's things like that? Well, I don't think we all need to be in the same meeting room writing that can be easily done. Virtually. So I think and I think what that then brings it and what we've seen, certainly in our organization, it brings a greater clarity and focus to to those sessions and they become over the last 910 months those those sessions have been a been much more streamlined and more effective, because I think in in a virtual world. I think the meetings can become sharper and been more pointed. because there aren't side conversations that are going on. Everyone's kind of focused on the same thing. So certainly not I think that's what I want to see. To see stick is is is one area. I think another area is really to reappraise the role of offices in our working lives and should offices be the places where everyone that comes in, sits behind their desk and stares at their screen all day. They all should offices be be that place for collaboration for celebration for connection? And then what does that mean for the for the design of the office the structure of the office that they had to be office? And and then how do you ensure that the in one's working week that they still have that time to, to be at a laptop and be at a screen and to get kind of things done? versus, you know, how do you carve out time for for, for that collaboration for that celebration, for that connection? So I think you'd be great to see, to see how organizations think about that in the future.
Tom Ollerton 25:38
You've made me think that if you've got a large organization and a big building spread over a few floors, in some ways, even if all, all the stuff are in the same building, some people might be so far away that they're effectively remote working anyway. And you'll easily remember what it's how hard it is to get a meeting room. Yeah. And eventually, inevitably, you have like a weird stand up meeting where you're sort of leaning on top of a photocopier or something. Is, is that any harder than it is having a video call? Probably not.
Mark Brown 26:07
Yeah, no, absolutely. And you know, just wanting to be seen in office a lot. We're part of a global organization, and maybe people in meeting rooms with headsets on on a team on our team's call, or a virtual call. And again, he just he just makes you think is that really the role for the office, somebody to be sat on their own on a headset, looking at the laptop that they could be doing at home or anywhere else and not having to commute not having to spend time in traffic, all that all of those things. And, you know, and that even in your right I've, on many occasions, I've been in the office, in a meeting, set my desk, with colleagues, a few desks away setting the same meeting, because the meetings are virtual with other people from them from around the world says. So I think that there's quite a few examples of that now that you just look back on and think oh, my goodness, what are we doing?
Tom Ollerton 27:08
I think the thing I look back on is in having a cold or going on? Yeah, I'll make it into the office. Yeah, you just got spread that cold all over the train. And you know, all the rest of the country is crazy, isn't it?
Mark Brown 27:19
Yeah, absolutely. It does make you think Yeah, I often think about receptionists in Doctor surgeries, and just how, how previously, they were just, you can go in and talk to them and be stood centimeters away from them. And then it will be the done thing. But I'm sure that coming out of this. I think that was very different. And I think you're right, yeah, I think I think all these kind of illnesses that that we've lived with and viruses that we'd lived with and just code on our normal life, I think that will be questioned as well. And moving forward.
Tom Ollerton 27:55
So one thing I'm really curious about, and an indulgent question, because it certainly affects my business. I'm curious to know, how do you think pitching will change moving forward. So when I worked at an ad agency, or creative agency, because you are essentially pitching against a group of competitors, they probably weren't really that difference. And some of the employees have probably worked for other companies and you know, sort of quite a homogenous way, the way that you made a point of difference was by your personalities, essentially, you know, someone's like, can you jump on a train and come to Leatherhead and pitch to us, and you do it and do it, everyone would chip in that whole half day or whatever, plus the preparation time. And then I assume brands would make a judgment call on the work, but also how they felt about the people and you know, all that kind of stuff. And you did that. Because if you have the agency, he's gone. Do you know what we're just gonna dial in? We're gonna do a video call, like, I think your win rate would have been pretty low. So so I assume you must have been on the receiving end of some creative pitches in the last year on the calls. So curious to know. Firstly, are they as good as in person pitches? And secondly, will you insist on in person pitches moving forward? Or with or would you mark someone down who didn't jump on the train and come to HQ?
Mark Brown 29:23
So answer to the question in, in a very brief way, yes or no? So yes, they have been good. And no, we won't make organizations agency from pixels face to face in the future. So let let me elaborate. And I think that for pictures to be successful in this world of virtual working, I think I think the three things for me, that are really, really important and it's simple things, I think quality of the work and good work still stands. So make sure that's front and center, the actual work, I think, secondly, make the pitch pointed, I can't remember, the amount of times I've been sat in a pitch face to face where, where the agency will spend the first 10 or 15 or 20 minutes telling me things I know either about my business or about the brief I've given to them. Or all of that stuff. So so I just say cut down the cut down the stuff that isn't, isn't essential, and is not pointed towards the strategy or the creative execution on the inside, or whatever it might be. So key point is, I think, in a virtual world, it is harder to keep people's attention. And keeping it pointed, and keeping it very straightforward is is very important. And then the third point is and you and you spoke about it was about Tommy's is around passion and find a way of getting that passion for the work or the brands that that you're pitching on through. And that needs to be done in an inventive way. And what I'd also say is that a pitch for me isn't, it's not a one off kind of presentation. A pitch is a process. And I'd say quite often, a lot of the credibility if you like, and a lot of passion, comes through from the contact you have with that agency outside of the pitch, in terms of the conversations, the questions that are asked. And then and just that, that that general greasing of the wheels if you like so I suggest that selling this virtual world, don't wait for the pitch to be the first contact with the client after the brief. I think schedule lots of little informal calls and stoke the fire is your likes it. So those are the three areas that that I think are really important. And when I think about the businesses that have won pitches with our business this year, they show all of those three things. So great work, very pointed, very clear kind of insight strategy execution. And then you've really displayed that passion in in obvious ways, you know, in terms of costumes you're wearing during the pitch and, and videos they've made, but then also in between brief and pitch, regular contact, asking, asking loads of good questions, showing loads of interests, building relationships, and really working hard to, to grease the wheels, because it's harder when when one is at face to face.
Tom Ollerton 32:42
Now, unfortunately, we're gonna have to leave it there. If someone wanted to impress you in a LinkedIn message, and get you to reply to them, what would be in that message?
Mark Brown 32:53
Good question. And that and I get a lot of a lot of messages in LinkedIn, as I'm sure you can appreciate, I think. First of all, just simple things, like getting my name right getting the brands I work on correct. And then being very, very clear with how you think you could add value. To me my business my team says so that that kind of get into that. What's neat for me, straightaway, and I think Second of all, showing you a good example of the work, a good example of work that really sums up your business.
Tom Ollerton 33:35
That's great advice. Mark, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.
Mark Brown 33:38
Thanks.