Episode 160 / Rustom Dastoor / Mastercard / Executive Vice President, Integrated Marketing and Communications North America
Podcast: Securing Consumer Loyalty Vs Bought Attention Post Pandemic
Rustom Dastoor enjoys living between countries and cultures, always saying “yes” to new opportunities as they come along. This has led to him living and working in London, New York and Singapore, and having a varied and rich career and social life as a result. He’s now starting a new role as Executive Vice President, Integrated Marketing and Communications North America at Mastercard. His Shiny New Object is loyalty in the post pandemic era, or how brands can go beyond simply transactional relationships with consumers.
Throughout his career and personal life, Rustom has always been seeking ways to mix things up once he became comfortable in a place or a job. His willingness to put himself in situations where he’s genuinely uncomfortable is one of his key approaches to life, which has led to experiencing new and exciting environments every few years.
The secret to doing this is not so much looking for active new ways to challenge yourself, but – as Rustom puts it – “when the question comes to you, you have to be ready to answer.” His answer, so far, has always been “yes.”
What has he learnt from relocating and purposely getting out of his comfort zone? Among other tips, Rustom told me he believes that marketing is not about marketing – but about connecting with people. This is why his Shiny New Object is about connection, too: loyalty in the post pandemic era.
According to Rustom, we’ve all lived through a period where we have questioned our relationships with brands and re-evaluated who we were once loyal to. Airlines are a good example: is having a loyalty system in place with one real loyalty, or is it more a bought relationship whereby, in return for flying with them, consumers receive certain perks?
By contrast, brands like Starbucks or Barnes and Noble, where consumers get much more than the simple purchase of a cup of coffee or a book, are building trust and great user experience. Starbucks offers an environment to meet friends or work, allowing consumers to change environments and benefit from much more than simply coffee. Similarly, Barnes and Noble offers a great place to be for book lovers, which doesn’t mean they’re always buying books, but that they will return there first and foremost at the time when they do want a book (as opposed to an online transaction, for example). It is this combination of great user experience, trust and generosity from the brand to the consumer that will create true loyalty in the longer term.
Find out more marketing tips from Rustom, as well as how he views brand generosity post-Covid, in the full episode here.
Transcript
The following gives you a good idea of what was said, but it’s not 100% accurate.
Tom Ollerton 0:00
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Hello, and welcome to the Shiny New Object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton. I'm the founder of Automated Creative. And this is a podcast about the future of marketing. Every week or so I have the pleasure and the privilege of interviewing one of our industry's leaders. And I'm very happy to say this absolutely no different this week, I want to call with Rustom Dastoor, who is executive vice president integrated marketing and communications, North America at MasterCard. Rustom, for anyone who's listening to this podcast, he doesn't know who you are, and what you do. Could you give them an overview of your your career and kind of what you do today?
Rustom Dastoor 1:30
Oh, well, firstly, Hello, Tom. Thanks for having me. It's pretty fun chatting with you. Who am I? And what do I do? That's a great question. Well, I'm a bloke living in Singapore at the moment, and in the throes of starting a new role at my employer, MasterCard. So for the last four years, I've been out here in Asia, running the Marketing and Communications Department. And in about two weeks time, I'll be relocating to New York City, and taking the same role, but for more community. So the US and Canada. So that's who I am, in terms of my professional life. Personally, I'm a kid who grew up in Mumbai, India, I left India in the late 90s, and began a career on the road that's taken me to New York, to London, to Singapore, now back to New York. And I kind of enjoy living between countries and cultures. So sort of that's who I am what I do.
Tom Ollerton 2:25
So what I would like to know that you enjoy living between cultures, and you've moved around, and congrats on the new job, but what's been the best investment of your own time your own money in your career?
Rustom Dastoor 2:39
You know, that's a great question, Tom, I've thought about this very often, because I've had a career now for 20 years, and I started thinking more and more about what's worked, what hasn't worked. And the thing that I found has worked best for me, is having an agility and flexibility in going places and doing things that other people might not have been that open to doing. So I've been very fortunate in that I've had many safe spaces in my life, both professionally and personally. Comfortable existences, comfortable home, comfortable job, comfortable life. And somehow that's never quite done it for me, I've always said to myself, after a few years, time to mix things up. And there's always a risk. When you do that there is a risk in terms of things going wrong, there is a financial risk, there is a personal risk. But I've always sort of wanted to take that risk and seeing where it takes me. And I'm on the cusp of this new journey, once again, where I'm taking a risk getting out of a safe space, and moving into a new space, that will almost certainly make me uncomfortable for a little while. But that's what sort of drives me and motivates me. And that's the journey that I've been on so far. So there's no one thing in terms of, you know, I read a great book, or I did a great course, or I learned a great lesson, it's more being a willingness to sort of put myself in situations where I'm genuinely uncomfortable, and then trying to see if I can work my way out of them. And that sort of gets me to a better place when I'm done with it.
Tom Ollerton 4:12
So that sounds amazing, right? Senior Marketing dude puts himself in difficult situations all the time and kind of tries to get out of them. So that's really easy to say and very hard to do. So I just want to go into that in a bit more detail. How do you know firstly, when it is time to take that risk?
Rustom Dastoor 4:32
You know that that time and that sort of answer? So the question comes to you, when when that moment comes, a question comes to you and then you got to be ready to answer, either with a yes, I'm willing to take the risk or No, I'm not willing to take the risk. So I'll give you an example. Four years ago, I was living in New York, I had a wonderful job at MasterCard in New York. I was living in the city. In New York City. I had a very comfortable, very enjoyable life. And then I got the opportunity to come to a country I had never been to. And a place where I never knew a single person and start a role leading marketing and communications for Asia Pacific. And the only country I'd ever been to in Asia Pacific was India, which is where I was born and raised. So the question came to me, are you ready to take the risk? I didn't go seeking that question. But when the question came to me, I could have either said, No, I'm very comfortable things are going well, I really don't need to be doing this right now. Or I could have said, this will drive me further forward, it will be uncomfortable, it'll be rough for a while, I'm gonna have to relocate to a place that I've never been, to make a whole new circle of friends, a whole new circle of professional colleagues, integrate into a new culture. But somehow, that's what motivated me to do it. It was precisely that, that I want a routine that is different from the one that I presently have. Not that there was anything wrong with the one I present that I had at the time. So that's sort of how the question came to me. And then the answer is, are you going to do it or not do it? And many folks, myself included, at some point in my life will answer the question with no, I'm not going to do it. And that's fine as well. But for the last 20 years answering yes, I'm going to do it has served me very well.
Tom Ollerton 6:17
Um, what advice would you give to yourself, if you go back in time at the start of those big risks.
Rustom Dastoor 6:23
So the advice I probably give to myself, when I started this journey, is, don't fear the unknown, I've come to realize that after 20 years, that you can't really script or plan your life, both professionally and personally. It'll happen as it happens, be ready for some of those uncertainties, be opportunistic, and taking advantage of things as they come along. Don't look at the script and micromanage every aspect of it, which is what I spent my 20s doing. And I totally regret it today, I could have enjoyed my 20s a lot more if I knew, then what I know now, which is that I can't control every aspect of my existence. And I'm just going to have to go with the flow and manage it as it comes along.
Tom Ollerton 7:09
Some great advice there. So, but let's move into marketing advice. I always ask my guests, what is your top marketing tip? What is that silver bullet bit of advice that you find yourself giving out most often?
Rustom Dastoor 7:22
You know, I talk about this quite often with people on my team. And particularly I keep this thought in mind when I interview folks to join our team. Marketing is not about marketing. Marketing is about connecting with people. And at some level, we're all marketers. You know, you go for a job interview, you're marketing yourself, you go on a date, you're marketing yourself, you're trying to make friends, you're marketing yourself. And that is intrinsic and inherent to human nature. We are a competitive species. And we want to position ourselves as better or more effective, or in any way superior to the other species, to the other individuals in our species. And marketing is no different. It is a way of delivering a advantage to you, your organization, your products, your services, whatever it is, you're in the business of marketing. So don't think about the process. Think about where you want to get to in the end, which is connecting with people who will integrate with you who will work with you, and who will get to the outcomes that you're seeking, whether it's a consumer buying a product, whether it's whether it's a partner, working with you in some capacity, whether it's the media who will talk about you, marketing is about engagement, and if you engage well, the marketing will take care of itself.
Tom Ollerton 8:44
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So we're at the halfway stage now. And we're going to talk about your shiny new object, which is loyalty in the post pandemic era. So kind of makes sense to me. But what do you mean by that? Help me understand why this is your shiny new object.
Rustom Dastoor 9:37
So I think we're all sitting here wondering what life looks like post pandemic, right? Will everything change, will nothing change, will some of the change? What I've come to realize is that the one thing that will likely change is how people view loyalty. Because this pandemic era of two years or whatever it turns out to be three years, four years has been so sudden so disruptive, and so alarming to all of us collectively on this earth, that it's bound to make us reevaluate the people places and things that we were once loyal to. I know, I see that in my own life professionally and personally. And that's the element that I'm quite keen on wrapping my head around as a marketer for the post pandemic era.
Tom Ollerton 10:22
Um, what are your predictions at this point? How do you see it playing out?
Rustom Dastoor 10:26
Let's assume there's no silver bullet here. There's no way to know for sure. But I'll give you an example of what I think about a lot, right? When you look at it, when you look at the business world, the purveyors of loyalty, the biggest purveyors of purveyors of loyalty have been airline companies. They have defined loyalty programs, you contribute to those loyalty programs by being loyal to them flying more miles on their airlines, you know, buying products that they may sell. And what you get in return are a series of points that you can cash in for some freebies along the way. Now, for one year, two years, three years, four years, that relationship between airline and traveler has been completely disrupted. So let's say travel resumes to 2019 levels in the year 2023, or 2024. Will we go back to be loyal to the same airlines? If we do, which ones will we be loyal to? Will I be loyal to Singapore Airlines, an airline that I've used frequently, will I belong to Cathay Pacific, but I've been loyal to others. I don't know. When I look at my personal life. For years, I have loved Nike products and only bought Nike products for the sports that I play. And all of a sudden sitting at home all these months, I started exploring other brands, not consciously but subconsciously. And suddenly, my loyalty as a consumer to a brand seems to have evolved. Why is that? Why has that happened? You know, what can brands do differently to maintain loyalty during this during this period of time, so that the post pandemic era follows where you where you've left off, during this period of time. So this is something I'm trying to wrap my head around as to what does it mean to be loyal to brands, to people to places, when everything is disrupted, and nothing is what you expected it to be?
Tom Ollerton 12:13
I'd like to talk a bit about the word itself, loyalty in a marketing context, because you give the example of airlines is it loyalty really, or is it like, you know, as you say, getting some free stuff, you're not like loyal to that airline to the point in which like, if you had one bad flight, or two bad flights, or they lost your luggage, or they were rude to you, or the food made you sick, you're not really loyal, like if you know, if a family member did all those things to you, you just forgive them to their partner, or your dad or your daughter, or whatever it is, like, there's loyalty, which is where you just keep on forgiving and going back, almost infinitely. And then there's sort of bought attention or bought custom, which is kind of what an airline loyalty scheme is. How do you feel about the the word loyalty in that context? Do you think people are actually loyal to brands? Or are they just incentivized not to go elsewhere? Which isn't loyalty at all?
Rustom Dastoor 13:13
Well, that's precisely the point, which is what we have today, between consumers and brands is a transactional loyalty. There are probably very few brands that have a genuine loyalty. And we often ask our question, ask ourselves this question. But should consumers be loyal to brands? Or should brands be loyal to consumers? I think it's the latter. It's brands who should be loyal to their consumers, not the other way around? It's sort of the same question. Is your dog loyal to you? Or are you loyal to your dog? Which one is it? You know, if you didn't feed him? If you didn't bathe him? If you didn't shelter him? Would he still be loyal to you? That's sort of the dilemma between a brand and a consumer. And I think for the longest time brands have asked consumers to be loyal to them and have this sort of transactional mechanism to say, we're going to buy your loyalty. But that's getting flipped on its head, where it is, in fact, brands who need to be loyal to their audiences. And that's where probably the loyalty will foster long term. And that's what we need to start thinking about.
Tom Ollerton 14:11
So that's a new concept to me brands being loyal to customers. Can you explain what that means? Exactly?
Rustom Dastoor 14:18
Sure. You know, we talked about airlines, you made the point that essentially, what is the relationship out there? Right? Is it one that fosters loyalty? Or is it just one that fosters a transaction? And you're absolutely right. What we're seeing is increasingly, that if you have a relationship with the consumer, where it's based on I do something for you, you do something for me, I sell to you, you buy from me, then that's not one that fosters loyalty. But if you have a relationship of one that one that is service based, you will find in response that loyalty is more forthcoming. So particularly right now, during the pandemic, we should try to serve consumers not to sell to consumers. And for a business, that's a very different mindset to be taking, particularly when that business is evaluated on a quarterly basis for profits, progress, etc. How do you shift to this mindset of right now, we will sell, not sell. And that service proposition longer term will stand us in good stead in good stead when we are ready to sell and people are ready to buy.
Tom Ollerton 15:27
So how does that work for an FMCG brand? For example, if you sell crisps or nappies or soft drinks, like they, they they're in the business of selling? How does how does this soft drink brands serve realistically a consumer whilst maintaining the profits, as you say that needs to show up every quarter?
Rustom Dastoor 15:50
You know, it's a great question. And there are a few brands that I've always looked at, through the lens of I'm loyal to these brands, because I gain something beyond what I buy from them. And I'll give you a couple of examples. Take Starbucks as an example, which is the epitone of a big corporate entity dedicated to making profits. But what I've always appreciated about Starbucks is that when I need to go someplace that is not home and not office, and I just need to chill for about an hour, read a book, just stare out, stare out the window, all I can do is buy a $5 cup of coffee, sit on a couch, and I know no one's going to hassle me for an hour, two hours, three hours, I can call a friend over we can sit and have a conversation and be comfortable. The environment is clean and safe. No one's troubling, troubling me no one's bothering me. And suddenly while I went to buy a cup of coffee, what I've actually ended up doing is being a guest in their environment for the time that I'm there. And I've always found that to be a reason why I go back to Starbucks, as opposed to other coffee shops, and that if Starbucks finally shuttered and walked away, I would miss them. I feel the same way about Barnes and Noble, the bookseller. In the US, I love reading books, I love reusing books. I'm not a big fan of buying books online, because I like sorting selecting, you know, the tactile nature of it. And what I love about Barnes and Noble is I can just go there and spend time there, may buy, I don't think I've bought anything 90% of the time that I've been in a Barnes and Noble, maybe only 10% of the time. But it's served me in growing me intellectually giving me a space to go where I feel enthusiastic, where I feel comfortable. It's become part of my chosen set of places, spaces, people brands to identify and spend time with. And to meet that type of brand fosters loyalty long term, if I have to buy a book, when I'm in the US, I will always buy it from Barnes and Noble, even though it'll only be 10% of the time that I'm actually in a Barnes and Noble. So I think from my own life experience, what I see when a brand is generous with me with what they have, when they're willing to share when they're willing to give my loyalty is faster without any loyalty points program, or without any kind of transactional relationship between them and me. And I tried to apply that same logic in my professional life, when I tried to build that relationship between a consumer and myself.
Tom Ollerton 18:23
That's a lovely thought the idea of generosity, generosity, going above and beyond creating a different experience. And what I think what's confusing me a little bit in this is interesting is that when you talked about the Barnes and Noble experience, you talked about the Starbucks experience, it almost that is user experience, that is the user experience of the product. Yes, sure. You're buying like a $5, hot hot or cold coffee. But you're also buying access to that feeling of comfort, security, flexibility to do a call to meet a friend, but it's so it sort of stitching two things together here is is the future of loyalty. Great user experience.
Rustom Dastoor 19:09
I think part of it is for sure. Absolutely. I think part of it is great user experience. Part of it is trust. Part of it is generosity. Part of it is not trying to sell but to serve. Part of it is looking at a consumer as a long term relationship, not as someone to be exploited in the short term. I think all of that. But yes, user experience is a big part of that. User Experience is probably the manifestation of all of this stuff coming together.
Tom Ollerton 19:37
Recently. I'm so sorry. But we have come to the end of the podcast. I could definitely stay talking about this for a very long time, and I've thoroughly enjoyed it. But I'm gonna have to call it a day here. But if I know for a fact there's gonna be people who really want to speak to you about this. How would you like them to get in touch with you, and what makes a brilliant outreach message to you?
Rustom Dastoor 19:59
Sure. Well, the easy way to get in touch with me is social media, you can just Google my name, it'll show up in LinkedIn, or Facebook or Instagram, pick any one of those that you're comfortable with. Write to me, professionally, LinkedIn is probably the best way to get in touch with me, you can just search for me on LinkedIn. Personally, you can ping me on Facebook or Instagram, I spent too much time on Instagram. So I'm almost certain to see your message. So that's probably the best, the best way to get to me. And the best message for me is how do we share ideas and experiences are not looking to sell? I'm not looking to buy, I'm looking to engage. So if that's what you want to do, hit me up, we'll have a conversation.
Tom Ollerton 20:38
Fantastic. Rustom. Thanks so much for your time.
Rustom Dastoor 20:40
My pleasure. Thank you Tom.
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