Episode 161 / Katie Puccio-Williams / Constellation Brands / Senior Community Manager, DTC Division
Podcast: How TikTok Changed Social Media Marketing
Having spent the last seven years in digital marketing and social media, Katie Puccio-Williams is passionate about social media marketing, whether in her role as Senior Community Manager, DTC Division, at Constellation Brands, or more broadly in her personal life. Her Shiny New Object is how TikTok saved brand voice, bringing a much-needed levity back online and changing how brands engage with consumers significantly.
Katie believes that, no matter what type of marketing you do, you have to bring yourself into the work and speak with an authentic, personal voice. This, is, after all, the reason you’re hired in the first place. And it’s also why she has admired how TikTok has enabled – and sometimes – forced brands to change the way they speak to consumers and the way they produce content.
In our podcast interview, Katie gives us an overview of social media and influencer marketing, starting with a “golden era” in 2012-2016, when influencers had massive sway and it was relatively easy to build huge audiences for a smaller amount of work compared to nowadays. While this took off, social media became a vital business function for brands and a major way to reach consumers, leading to heavily curated content. However, the public was accepting of that and there was a general feeling that, as Katie puts it, “the internet was generally a happy, interesting place.”
From 2016, however, with the ever more polarised landscape post-Brexit and moving into the pandemic, the overall mood changed dramatically. Cheerful brand messages that would sell products stopped working, social media was full of negativity and animosity, and “everyone IRL (in real life) [was] being terrible to each other.”
This is where TikTok has been able to make a huge difference: during the pandemic and associated lockdowns, there was a huge need for something more positive, for levity to come back online, as well as for real people to communicate how they’re living everyday lives. Going from “You’re only as relatable as you manufacture yourself to be” to creating true community, TikTok is forcing brands to engage and build real connections with consumers.
TikTok has broken open the types of content that users found interesting, paved the way for individual creators to make themselves seen, and eventually is changing the way brands market themselves online. Whether becoming more adept at engaging in comments and ad-hoc conversations, or jumping on the new language that’s emerging as a platform-native way of speaking, developing brand voice has now changed forever.
Listen to Katie’s detailed recent history of social media marketing, her views on using your own voice in marketing and her best advice for students starting out in the industry, in the full episode here.
Transcript
The following gives you a good idea of what was said, but it’s not 100% accurate.
Tom Ollerton 0:00
Tom Ollerton 0:00
Before we start the show, I'd like to talk to you about Brandwatch, which is a digital consumer intelligence company. It helps businesses better understand their consumers and buyers with clever software that enables them to analyze conversations from across the web, and social media. To find out more, visit brandwatch.com. And you can sign up for up to the minute consumer insights in your inbox each week at brandwatch.com/bulletin. And it's worth mentioning that my business Automated Creative uses Brandwatch every single day and our business would be impossible to deliver without it. So it's a real pride that I welcome them as partners for this week's episode.
Hello, and welcome to the shiny new object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton. I'm the founder of automated creative and this is a weekly podcast where I interview one of our industry's leaders and this week is no different. I'm on a call with Katie Puccio-Williams, who is Senior community manager, DTC division at Constellation Brands. Katie, for anyone listening to this podcast, he doesn't know who you are, and what you do. Could you give them an overview?
Katie Puccio-Williams 1:20
Absolutely. Hello, everybody. My name is Katie Puccio-Williams, by pronouns are she and her I'm the Senior Community Manager for the DTC division at Constellation Brands, which is a large kind of beverage and alcohol, manufacturing, distribution and importing company. And I am based in Brooklyn, New York. And I have spent the last almost seven years in kind of the digital marketing social media world.
Tom Ollerton 1:54
So what advice would you give to a smart driven student who wanted to follow in your footsteps.
Katie Puccio-Williams 2:03
So when I first started my career, I worked for a small kind of global digital production shop, Stink Studios, which is sister company of Stink Films, which some folks who listen to this may recognize. So when I started at Stink Studios, I had the the fortune of working with a woman who is based out of our LA office, she was the managing director of the Los Angeles office. And she, she gave me this wonderful advice that I kind of have taken with me since and I try to pass on as much as possible, which is, you if you want to be successful in our industry, and you want to have longevity in our industry, then you need to make sure that you are comfortable setting boundaries for yourself. To kind of protect, to protect your heart and to protect your own mental health to make sure that you don't burn out. think marketing is isn't always on kind of industry. Because things are always changing. And there's always things to react to. And so learning how to set boundaries for yourself, is the most important way to make sure that you have longevity to keep doing this work, and that you set yourself up to like work sustainably so that you're protecting your mental health and your ability to be creative and be nimble and be flexible. So the first step of that is finding a place to work with a client base that's going to be in line with your own interests and priorities. If you're stuck working, say your heart is in, like creative production, you really are into like websites and cutting edge and you're into web 3.0 and the metaverse like, maybe traditional CPG companies are not going to be interesting for you. Or if you love fashion, like Fintech is not going to feel interesting for you. By not kind of setting yourself up for success and, and finding a boundary that works for you. You're gonna burn out faster, and you're not going to love the work you're doing anymore.
Tom Ollerton 4:18
So that's interesting, that is a boundary for us about the the work as opposed to the amount of work or the or the type of work is that what you mean by boundaries is like, I will never work weekends or you know, I refuse to work on automotive brands or something like that. Help me understand that a bit better.
Katie Puccio-Williams 4:38
Yeah, I think that's important too. But I think those those boundaries are things like everybody can tell you about right. And I think conversations around how we work and how we allow ourselves to work are changing very quickly. And I think the pandemic exasperated that in a lot of ways in terms of like, making sure you them at your screen too. Time or, you know, your off hours are really your off hours, you'll see even more companies offering unlimited PTO and benefits like that. So I think those are conversations that are happening at such a high level and from so many different people that that's, that's not advice that I would feel to reiterate, but I think something has been important to me in my career is setting work boundaries. So like, I would not be able to do my best work if I worked for a pharma company. Because I'm not interested in that industry. I don't, I don't agree with some of the things that happen there. And like, I just wouldn't be able to be an unbiased source, I wouldn't be able to do my best work. But like, I work in beverage alcohol, which is a category I love and care so much about, and I'm truly passionate about. And that allows me to then prioritize personal boundaries, because I don't have to be bogged down by like, feeling like work is a sludge every day that I'm kind of getting through.
Tom Ollerton 6:00
So that's a great bit of career advice, but I'm looking for a marketing tip. Now, do you have any kind of golden nuggets of advice that you find yourself sharing on a regular basis?
Katie Puccio-Williams 6:10
Yes, so um, a lot of times I have found myself in kind of like a hybrid strategist copywriter role, and that tends to be the kind of like, niche that I fall into just the way my brain works. And the best piece of advice I can give is that you you are hired for being yourself and for what you bring to the table. And it's okay to put yourself into your work, you should be able to vary your tone and your creative output in terms of style and aesthetic based on a brief or based on client needs or based on, you know, company policy and everything like that. But you should be able to put yourself into your work and play to your strengths whenever possible, it will make the work more interesting and allow you to find more nuance, and it'll just be more fulfilling.
Tom Ollerton 6:57
Can you give me an example of when you've done that?
Katie Puccio-Williams 7:00
Absolutely. Um, so a lot of what I do is kind of like direct level community management. So engaging with consumers on own social media channels. Going into, you know, social media networks and engaging with people in the comment section, all of that kind of like boots on the ground social media work. And now that I'm working kind of like in the wine category, which is I have my level two w set certification. I know a lot about wine, I really kind of care about that space. I actually don't have a free set of pre approved responses for when I respond to customers when they ask me questions about why and I take that as an opportunity to kind of bring my own storytelling experience and my own kind of knowledge. And put that into play when responding to consumers. It allows you to seem not seem it allows you to be more relatable and more interesting and you can personalize a lot better if you're not using canned responses, and you're really putting your own thoughts into the work.
Tom Ollerton 8:15
Yeah, that's that's lovely advice, but also the most hard work right? It will is human a human required to find the work around, just gonna cut and paste this thing of yes, that's wonderful to hear about the level of craft that goes in your work.
This episode of the shiny new object podcast is brought to you in partnership with MADfest. Whether it's live in London or streamed online to the global marketing community, you can always expect a distinctive and daring blend of fast paced content, startup innovation pitches, and unconventional entertainment from Madfest events. You'll find me causing trouble on stage recording live versions of this podcast and sharing a beer with the nicest and most influential people in marketing. Check it out at www.madfestlondon.com.
So we're at the halfway stage now. So we're going to talk about your shiny new object, which has like the coolest title, which is how TikTok saved brand voice. So what do you mean, and let's get into that.
Unknown Speaker 9:29
Yeah, okay. So I want to kind of take us through, almost like the last 10 years of social media brands, social media, and I'm gonna throw influencers in here too, because I think the way they use a personal brand is very similar to how corporations think about brand on social media. And really, how that started, how that changed and like really where we are now and what I I want to focus on kind of at the end is the role that TikTok plays in our like, modern social media ecosystem. And I love social media. I've been doing social media for my entire career, I'm extremely online as an active user and my downtime. And so this is something I've kind of like, been silently observing and putting into practice in my own work for a long time. But it was interesting thinking about this to like, actually put it into words and kind of codify the thoughts that have been rattling around in my head for the last couple of years. And so I want to go, I want to go back a little bit to the kind of like, golden era of brand and influencer social media. So to me, that's probably like 2012 to 2016. So tweets were winning lions at at con they influencers had like massive sways with consumers, people who had transitioned from being bloggers into these massive platforms with the rise of Instagram, and things like hashtags were still a very effective way to reach new audiences. Because these platforms were new, they hadn't figured out how to kind of optimize in terms of their own marketing efforts to bring in more ad dollars. And just like that was a golden age of organic social media where people could take off and build these huge audiences for a relatively little amount of work compared to what what it's like now with Facebook's kind of like pay to play model. And I also think what was happening at the same time was like, we were at a very interesting point in like social culture, right, at least in the US, like, we thought we were heading towards the first female president. And the internet was generally a happy, interesting place, there was a whole boom in like, this new kind of like, sitcom comedy era of TV like, there were all these shows and all these things that were happening that just there was a certain levity to it. And there was also a rise of all these new platforms for reaching people. So Instagram exploded. And you saw the shift of like, from like photo sharing to, I'm going to use all these filters. So suddenly, we have curated feeds, we have people who are building esthetics are using it to drive work and kind of show creative prowess. But this is also the time that Vine started to blow up when we start to see vertical video for the first time, really capture that kind of like attention economy. And you kind of see that social media begins to become a vital business function for corporations. And we moved beyond that, like, Oh, this is your this is your intern tweeting for the brand like no, this is like a major part of a brand's marketing spend. And it was a major way to reach consumers and be the kind of front line between your audience and the brand you're building. So then, we get to 2016. And like, around the world, everything kind of changed. It really continued to change until we get to like 2020 with a pandemic. I think after after what happened with the US election. What happened with Brexit, Austria, elected a far right leader, so did Brazil, like the world just felt
Unknown Speaker 13:20
The world felt scary. And there's a lot of social unrest and the kind of 24 hour news cycle, especially on social became really intense. And it brought all of these things to the foreground that we've kind of just been skirting over. And there was like a very significant tone change that came with that. And given the kind of constant deluge of bad news after bad news after scary situation like people's relationship with the internet and with social media began to change and it became to come become strained. Like how many people took a social media break? How many people deleted Facebook because they just couldn't look at the internet anymore because it was full of bad news. And so something like a quippy tweet from like Wendy's who once reigned supreme with like having people roast them and going after McDonald's and kind of like dunking on their competitors. All of a sudden, that doesn't hit the way used to because everyone IRL is being terrible to each other. So like when you see it reflected back to you by a brand that doing it to sell a product. It's not as effective and so this this meanness and kind of not mean is that snark really snark was kind of like the identity of all of these brands on the internet, and it kind of became ground cover like if you wanted to play and when on Twitter. You needed to you needed to be snarky, you needed to make jokes you needed to find moments to kind of like clap back. And that was that was kind of how you want on Twitter for for a long time, I think we see it even as recently as the, the, the chicken sandwich wars between Popeyes and Chick fil A and that was what 2019. Um, but at the same time, like, consumers are becoming increasingly aware of kind of this like grip that in a way, capitalism has really like, what brands were trying to do. And it was no longer than being relatable, right? Like, this curse of relatability, I think is something that also plagues not just the internet and social media, but I think it plagues celebrities too, with like, you're only as relatable as you can manufacture yourself to be. And then eventually, that bubble bursts, and there's a massive fall from grace. So we see something like the silence brand meme, which is like this crab with a laser or some kind of little thing with a bunch of legs, that people would start replying and comments. Like, if a brand tried to do too much, if they kind of went to that cringe snarky territory, you'll see the rise of accounts like brands saying Bay, where they would just snark on brands posting things to try to seem relatable and to try to seem interesting, but really, it just, it was cringy, and embarrassing. And people became more and more aware of that. And it became less cool to be that way on social media. And I think that was especially true for a platform like Twitter, which is a you know, usually a really easy one to one kind of consumer relation channel, because you can kind of engage in via DMS, and people use a lot for customer service. And so suddenly, you see this sea of sameness, right? We're all of these brands are kind of doing the same thing. And that thing is not working anymore. The same can be said for what was happening to influencers on Instagram. So in the early days of social media, these influencers who started out as bloggers or YouTubers, were building these massive audiences on Instagram, around like, I think especially about fashion influencers, they were doing hauls, they were doing all of this stuff. They were gifted, they were doing tutorials. And they were building this kind of aspirational life. But in times of social unrest, like skinny, rich influencer, who lives in the most wealthy neighborhood in the city you live in. That's, that's not aspirational anymore. It's unattainable. When people are having this kind of like visceral reaction to what's happening in the world, somebody who's just kind of like posting these shots, and look how wonderful my life is, and look at all these beautiful products that I have and look at my home decor and my matching capsule wardrobe. And people began to be aware of these kind of like, tactics that allowed all these influencers to build huge followings.
Unknown Speaker 18:07
But just weren't giving back to the community. And anyway, so things like loop giveaways, which Instagram and Facebook banned, because they want to prioritize creators who are going in and like engaging with the community. They built, just kind of like generating new followers and trying to beat the algorithm, they began to kind of penalize people for doing that. And what it did was it it really showed this gap between people who claimed to have built a community and an audience of people, right, a community and audience are not the same thing. And so this kind of set it and forget it tactic that kind of been governing social media for all these influencers with this kind of post once a day. And on Tuesdays, they do hauls and on Wednesdays they do try-ons. And on Thursdays, they go out and about like that. That method wasn't interesting to people anymore. But all of these brands and all of these influencers, were stuck in a rut because now we're competing with these much more advanced algorithms. And they're these kind of ever changing platform updates from these huge companies designed to make you spend more money on Facebook. So the only way they knew how to beat the algorithm was by doing what they had always done, which was no longer working. But then we got TikTok and TikTok is the great equalizer. I think the kind of rise in popularity of short form vertical video was kind of the logical next step in the attention economy. I think full bleed video. Especially things that are played on a loop and repeat. capture everything that drives how people pay attention and how people stop the scroll. And that's something companies were fighting to do on social media for so long, like how can we make people stop scrolling and engage with us because like engagement is king and on Tik Tok, you had a platform that was built to do this in the most effective way possible. That keeps you looped in indefinitely. I, I've gone hours, I've lost hours of my life scrolling TikTok, and I could have sworn I was on the app for 45 minutes and like, it's four or five hours later. And so there's like a, there's an addictiveness to the way they built the platform. But that's, that's a whole other thing. So when TikTok kind of like entered the public consciousness coming out of musically, it was, it was kind of built as a teen dance app. But I think for those of us who work in marketing, especially those of us who specialize in social, it was always pretty clear that the TikTok was going to be much more powerful than that. Because it started out as like this is the new musically, or this is the new Vine. But it quickly surpassed both of those other apps in terms of capabilities, because it took the best features from Vine, Snapchat, Instagram, and YouTube and combine them into one place. But more importantly, than any of the features, the most important thing that Tik Tok had that is really kind of changed the landscape of social media is the TikTok algorithm. Now, some people think that the algorithm is actually not an algorithm. And it's a team of strategist and curators who are serving you things on your feed, but that's neither here nor there. And the thing about the TikTok algorithm that was so interesting, and so exciting, was how it prioritizes content and serves it to different communities because seemingly, anyone on Tik Tok could go viral at any time, which made the platform super attractive to creators and brands looking to build an audience very quickly, the way they might have been able to if they joined Twitter, or Instagram in the early days and kind of figured that out. So after like, four or five years of kind of like this bland, monotonous sea of sameness, suddenly we see like, new forms of content happening. And it was actually very similar to the way Tumblr used to build creative communities. And it's kind of golden era. But the difference between what Tumblr did and what TikTok does, I guess Tumblr still exists, but not in the way it used to...
Unknown Speaker 22:44
Is that TikTok put a face and a personality behind these creators working in these very niche verticals as opposed to like, anonymous read blogs or or fake usernames that didn't tie the actual real person. So I think there's, it takes the aesthetic and vulnerability that made and personalization that made Instagram so popular, but it added the ability to target niche communities organically, which I think is the most important. And now, I want to caveat about TikTok that we know that TikTok deprioritizes content from people of color from queer people from people who are poor and disabled, or their background, their videos are not nice looking that was like, released in internal documents, I think Verge had it. And a couple of other outlets picked it up as well. And so there was a real kind of like reckoning in the beginning of the pandemic, that that was not okay. And that was addressed by the TikTok creator team. And you know, to some extent, that's probably still happening, but it's much better than it used to be. But what happened with the pandemic, when suddenly we're all at home, and things felt really scary and really bad? Was it TikTok broke open. The types of content that users found interesting, because the majority of content that was being produced that was going viral that was reaching millions of people were from individual creators. They weren't from brands, because Tik Tok was such a new app, that the kind of like pay to play model that had kind of plagued Facebook and Instagram just wasn't there yet. And as someone like me, who has worked with TikTok partners and has thought about advertising on that platform, it's expensive. It's really expensive. So the end, the way you can advertise is often in like promoted spots. Like when you first open the app for 24 hours making sure your videos the first video but a lot of times those really look like ads. They don't look like the content you'd see in your feed and I think TikTok much like Reddit can smell bullshit from a mile away. And so they're not interested in ad content because that's not what people go to TikTok for. TikTok is a discovery app for things that everyday people use. It's not a discovery app in the way like Instagram is a way for people to discover brands and new products, like the things I've discovered from Tik Tok are like, how to clean the grout in my bathroom, or there's a guy who runs a bodega in Red Hook, who makes these sandwiches and there's, you know, not a neighborhood, that unless you live there, it's relatively inaccessible by train. Like most people wouldn't be going to that place. And putting a light on just like everyday people doing normal things, who just found a way to make that interesting and sellable. And so there's a whole new landscape on TikTok that has not been available to consumers before. And so at the very top of that, I started to talk about how TikTok saved brand voice. And so what I mean by that is, what TikTok did was it created a platform that was not made for brands. So in return, brands have to work harder. And people like me that social media managers have to work harder to engage with the communities they want to reach. And tiktoks are really hard to platform for brands because so much of the trending content on a platform relies on songs that are not available to brands because of copyright rules. So unless it's part of the TikTok brand library, or it was a sound that was uploaded by a user that wasn't copyrighted, or something a brand purchased either from a third party site or is something that was in the public domain.
Katie Puccio-Williams 27:17
So what you see is, brands have to go to the communities they want to reach in order to find sounds that will allow their content of trends. So there was a really funny audio from last year. It started out as this person singing to their cat, it's called here comes the boy. And then somebody added like a piano behind it. And suddenly there was this lush orchestral arrangement. And like, all the brands were using that, like, I remember really viral video that the San Diego Zoo did with one of their penguins. And so brands have to enter the communities they want to reach in order to find things that will allow them to trend. So it takes a lot more hands on work. And it kind of fills that gap between you know, the audience, a community that I was talking about before. And so what ends up happening is, a lot of times instead of making content, brands who are winning on Tik Tok, are winning in the comment section of popular videos. And a lot of times those are popular videos kind of like outside of the brand's primary category. And so like Duolingo the language learning app is really popular on TikTok because their social media manager who has been profiled and like starting to build a whole community of her own right is just like, fully unhinged in the comments of people's videos like something that has absolutely nothing to do with like learning language. She's in writing funny comments. Actually, a lot of NFL teams are really really good about this. Jumping in especially if there's like videos of little kids doing like funny athletic things. Ryanair has done a really good job kind of jumping in on Tik Tok and not just in a customer service capacity in like a truly proactive community management way which has been really exciting. And this has allowed brands to be playful again, and to do it without being cringy because with the volume of videos that are uploaded to Tik Tok, there's countless opportunities to show up in these kinds of like surprise and delight unexpected ways in people's feeds. And this is like obviously a relatively new phenomenon because TikTok's only been like massive for two years now, two and a half years. So we'll need to see kind of how this engagement in the comments affects kind of like sales and acquisition the way you look at kind of traditional acquisition and retention on other organic channels, but it's a much more effective marketing tool than any of the other social media platforms we've seen over the last couple of years. And I think the pandemic highlighted a need for levity on social media and tick tock has been like a really, really welcome change of pace because it it made it made the content that users find interesting, viral, it wasn't just aesthetic videos. It wasn't aesthetic things like Instagram. It was It has filters, but it wasn't all funny filters. Like when Snapchat tried to revive itself. It wasn't all jokes like mine.
Um, and even copycat apps like Reels and Triller won't be able to replicate what Tik Tok is doing. Because Tik Tok is created this really unique culture on the app. I think part of that has to do with the kind of language and the voice that is being used there. So you'll see like subject areas on TikTok referred to as talks. So are you on food talk? Are you on Train Talk? Are you on frog chocolate? Do you routinely get served videos that fall in this niche category on the for you page of FYP. Um, and so creators who can master these verticals can explode in popularity. And with those new communities, they've created a new way of kind of like speaking and interacting. And this development of this brand voice, which I think a lot of times it's like wrongly attributed to Gen Z, because I think it's not just Gen Z, I think it's very specific to the culture of TikTok and to know of Gen Z. So I worked in beverage alcohol, and one of the things about beverage alcohol is you can't advertise on social media. Unless I think it's 71.4% of all users are above legal drinking age. And like TikTok is just flirting with finally crossing that line so that alcohol brands can advertise there. But so most TikTok users are adults, I think the pandemic changed the demographics pretty radically. Um, and so it's building this platform native lingo that brands can then use to express their kind of own brand character and identity, but still with this kind of common denominator lingo that's native to that app, really, and that app only so Tik Tok has very strict community guidelines. And the AI's that flag videos for Community Guidelines violations are, they're swift, they take videos down so fast. And so what ends up happening is people create this language to kind of skirt around community guidelines, that then becomes just kind of like the default language for the users. So for example, TikTok is really committed to making sure especially given the association with like teens, that there's no depictions of like anything graphic, no death, no anything like that. So any TikTok where people would say the word death or die or kill even on like a hyperbolic funny way, like, oh, I killed it on that or like, you know, this, like, whatever any, any use of those words. So what ends up happening is now people are using un-alive to mean kill or die, and that's pretty dark. But now people say un-alive to replace those words IRL, and it started on Tik Tok. And I think what's interesting is like ways to skirt the algorithm mimic traditional linguistic patterns like because you can caption natively caption on TikTok, which is like a big accessibility feature that a lot of users really called for, in order to get around cursing and having to have your curses be captioned out, similar to what's done with like, cockney rhyming slang. People are using rhyming words in the captions to kind of skirt around curse words. So it's breeding this whole new world of creativity. And Tik Tok is a platform that, like rewards that creativity where I think a lot of other platforms, they reward style, not necessarily creativity. And it's interesting when you look at the the social tone of other platforms and how a lot of times like internet speak is pulled directly from like black Vernacular English. And so there's this type of like digital blackface, which definitely happens on Tik Tok. But a lot of the Tik Tok native Vocabulary actually derives from how people use the platform as opposed to pulling from BVE which is think is really interesting. And so a lot of what this like Gen Z speak is are things that are derived from how people use and interact with Tik Tok. So it's created this whole new world for people to pull, inspiration and creativity from, but also to allow them to be creative in their own right.
And I think as the platform gets more mature, and as the algorithm gets more mature, obviously, you'll see brands come in as they find ways to like, monetize and build out their brand, advertiser tools, of course. But I also think, at the end of the day, like, that's not the culture of the app, and I think they are pretty hell bent on making sure that it doesn't become the future of the app while still being profitable, which is a trap that pretty much all the other social networks fell into it.
Tom Ollerton 35:54
We are going to have to leave it there. And that was a unique episode of the shiny new object podcast because I asked a single question when it came to your shiny new objects. And that was a literally a fascinating monologue. And I'm so unbelievably impressed by your knowledge, I learned so much. I saw the use of that stuff. I definitely didn't know a lot of that stuff. I feel I've been schooled and educated and inspired. And all I can think to say is thank you so much. What an incredible brain. What an incredible communicator you are, I absolutely loved that. Yeah, gonna pay very close attention to your works. I thoroughly enjoyed it. And I feel really bad having to call time on it. But I have to go on and record something else. So I will put this episode out, which was great, great pride, because that was fantastic. Such an education. But if someone wanted to reach out and get in touch with you, how would you like them to do that?
Katie Puccio-Williams 36:54
Yeah, so I am on. I'm always online on social media. So my handle is. It's @Katie_PW__. And that's Twitter and Instagram. So find me there I am. I post a lot of pictures of my dog. And I make a lot of terrible jokes on Twitter. So you can follow me there. And if any questions, feel free reach out, I realized no one really gives me the opportunity to talk about social media ad nauseum. And there's always more where that came from.
Tom Ollerton 37:29
Fantastic. Katie, thanks so much your time.
Katie Puccio-Williams 37:32
Of course, thanks Tom.
Subscribe to the ‘Shiny New Object’ Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube and Soundcloud.