Episode 140 / Seb Bardin / Unilever / Head of eCommerce Marketing
Podcast: Why and How Brands Should Tap Into D2C
Seb Bardin is the Head of eCommerce Marketing at Unilever. Having always been interested in computers and technology, he turned this passion into a career and is now focusing on finding the best approach to innovation. His Shiny New Object is D2C – i.e. direct to consumer sales, a channel that has grown exponentially during the pandemic and which more brands should be using.
At Unilever, Seb and his colleagues use the 80/15/5 approach to innovation, using the art of saying “no” to focus on what really drives business forward. This way, dedicating 5% of effort and time to new ventures allows Seb to look at the bigger picture without falling prey to KPIs, not getting too distracted by every single Shiny New Object that comes along.
When it comes to new marketing ventures, Seb suggests that brands should use what’s been proven to work for their business. This means either tried and tested innovations, or those that are linked directly with your objectives.
This is why Seb’s Shiny New Object is D2C – Direct to Consumer. This is not an entirely new concept, but it’s one that’s thrived during the pandemic with more and more people selling their products and services directly and bypassing big platforms like Amazon.
There are some advantages to D2C: you can offer a unique customer experience, while also collecting first-party data, which will become ever more important as we move to a cookie-less world. Additionally, D2C is also a great testing ground for new products, as it’s easier to launch and also kill products that don’t perform well before committing them to various other platforms.
To find out more of Seb’s top marketing tips, how he treats OKRs vs KPIs and how he advises using D2C, listen to the podcast here.
Transcript
The following gives you a good idea of what was said, but it’s not 100% accurate.
Tom Ollerton 0:00
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Hello, and welcome to the Shiny New Object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton and I am the founder of Automated Creative and this is a weekly podcast where I interview one of our industry's leaders, and this week is no different. I've got Seb Bardin, Head of Ecommerce Marketing, oh, my God at Unilever, I think for the second or third time on this podcast. So could you give the audience an overview of who you are? And what you do?
Seb Bardin 1:17
Hi Tom. So yeah. So I've been now 15 years in digital marketing in the UK. So I've been working at Amazon at Sony and I started my role at Unilever two years ago.
Tom Ollerton 1:33
And can you give us a kind of insight? How did you get into the industry? What was your, like, your journey? How did that start?
Seb Bardin 1:43
I've always been interested into computers, and you know, in late 90s, internet arrived to Mauritius. So you know, it was always a brand new thing where you can have information that is not controlled by the government or, you know, mobile phone for a few amount of media. So I got into really passionate into it, I started to learn how to do website using Dreamweaver back in the days, a little bit of HTML, and when you saw the passion and when an opportunity to transform this passion into my work. And since then, you know, going from website design to, you know, research campaigns to you know, programmatic and now, you know, I'm starting and focusing more on the ecommerce side.
Tom Ollerton 2:37
So, in your your many and varied roles, what new belief or behavior in the last few years at least have made work better for you?
Seb Bardin 2:50
I think it is mainly focusing on the task focusing on the on the big picture. So make sure that you know, there's no noise or no distraction coming from outside to make sure you achieve, you know, what is expected for the business. Of course, be curious is important because this is how your mind should look at things differently. To bring new ideas as well on board but but definitely focusing on, on getting the results. And focusing on the outcome is definitely a big help. And also, you know, to make sure that you can balance you know, manage well. The balance between work, you know, work life balance as well. So yeah, that's a little bit bad.
Tom Ollerton 3:47
So, you mentioned curiosity, and that that's a word that comes up a lot when I'm recording this podcast, and I think it's seen as something that marketers really admire and revere and suggest, but how do you draw the line between just being curious and investigating something that's new versus honing in on a skill, like really becoming a deep level practitioner? Is there a trade off? Or how do those two needs marry up? Or do they have to stay separate?
Seb Bardin 4:23
I think there's also, yeah, as you say there's a trap, but you know, be curious where you fall into the trap of trying all the latest shiny new things and be curious to make sure that you achieve what you want to, what is required. I guess for me it's more as soon as you know you still have what is your end goal, your objectives in mind. This is how you know I always you know, use curiosity to bring about you know, a process of getting things done.
Tom Ollerton 5:08
Anyway, so maybe I know the answer to this question already. But what have you become better at saying no to in recent years?
Seb Bardin 5:19
I think it was simple to say no to all latest marketing gimmick, I guess you might be recalculated mistaking. But again, when you say, oh, let's do you know, blockchain media buying, or, you know, any new buzzword that is in the marketing world, I think I've started to say no more to these things, until it's proven, or until it is helping us achieving, you know, the expected outcome of a campaign.
Tom Ollerton 5:55
So, so who do you think should pay the price for proving that these things work? If if not a brand like Unilever with deep pockets?
Seb Bardin 6:05
Um, I guess, yeah, there's always opportunities to do, you know, to look at these new, shiny new things is, you know, if you are really good, this unknown approach, well, you know, about X amount of your budget is going into testing brand new things, versus things that we've been doing, but it's working well. So, you know, in the past, I guess, you know, we, you know, we had a lot of pressure, budget pressure. So again, it's, you really need to think quite hard before going into something new, that can really help the business, we have your campaigns. But in other situations where, you know, we are much more comfortable in business, I guess, we approach, what I'm looking at it's more, you know, 80-15-5, where 80% will be, you know, in something that is, you know, proven and working and when you 5% so if you're brand new and button person something but maybe you're over businesses in, in different industry are doing, but we've never done before. So, so yeah, it will be a three tier type of approach.
Tom Ollerton 7:14
And how do you decide what to say no to so as you say, you've got like blockchain based marketing activities, NFT's are sort of blown up a bit recently. Do you have a system for saying no to things? Or a bunch of questions that help you arrive at a no, or is it instinctual?
Seb Bardin 7:37
It will be also, you know, to to make sure, you know, to align it with, you know, what we're trying to achieve first. And then also, you know, talk to other peers in the industry to see how they've done it. If you know, or if you're interested to, you know, to understand it to be the point of view of different leaders and Marketing Leaders as well. So yeah, it's, you know, it won't be just a No, no, for me, no, but definitely, we make sure that, you know, it's informed against objective, and against industry point of view as well.
Tom Ollerton 8:11
So I was at a conference yesterday, MAD//Fest, in fact, and what really struck me after years of working in marketing, I was quite embarrassed to admit this, but there seems to be two camps. There's the technologists, such as, like my cell phone, ad tech startup, where we're trying to reinvent, break, change, push forwards, the whole industry, we're using technology, then that's, that's kind of what excites us and gets us out of bed in the morning. So it's people like us and other ad tech suppliers and innovation, people saying, oh, the pace of change has never been more frenetic. But then there's the other school of thought, which is the, you know, the thinkers, the strategists, you know, like, the chin scratches go, Well, you know, people don't really change and has marketing really changed that much in, in as many years? And do you think that it's, it's worth having a foot in both camps? Or, or do you think it's a safer bet for marketers, just to, you know, as you say, focus on the 80% and just make that work and not get too distracted.
Seb Bardin 9:18
Um, I've always said it's more technology should be a business enabler that allows you to, you know, to to reach your, your end goal. So, again, if there's something that is really relevant, you know, it's better it's worth taking a risk and, you know, you know, test learn fail or test learn success when you know, and then make it bigger. So, so for Yeah, for me is, yes. The basis of marketing is still the same. It's just the technology is out there to facilitate and to make things much more automated to You know, what they're all about humans are positive arguments we have around it. But at the end of the day, yes, it's just it needs to be seen as an enabler to help you at the end of the day.
Tom Ollerton 10:14
So I'm curious to know, if you have a top marketing tip, a bit of Seb silver bullet advice that you could share with the audience, what is that one bit of marketing, advice or inspiration that you share most often?
Seb Bardin 10:34
Always, always come back to think about a bigger picture. You need to be just to make sure that it's always coming back to focusing your effort to select the right partners in terms of you know, what you're doing, let's on the technology side, but also know to avoid going into the trap of, you know, nitty gritty KPIs. And so, you know, something I, I've learned in recent years is to go into a more OKRs type of approach, which is objective key results, instead of focusing too much on the on the KPIs. So by by doing this, what, at least what I'm doing on the, on the digital marketing side is much more aligned to what the business wants to achieve the outcome side, so definitely, I guess, you know, always have in mind, a bigger picture and where we want to go, what's the North Star at the end of the day?
Tom Ollerton 11:44
But isn't the bigger picture always your career?
Seb Bardin 11:49
Yes, there's the career, but also, you know, at the end of the day, you know, the success of your campaign, the success that will translate into a success of sales, there is also part of, you know, something career related or remuneration, but also proud of...
Tom Ollerton 12:10
Yeah, we're into academic territory, aren't we? So you mentioned OKRs and KPIs, but I'm just curious to know how you sort of see those as different might I mean, we don't function on an OKR basis as a business, we have another way of doing it. But isn't an OKR just the KPI like that, that the R is the indicator, right? The key performance indicator? I think, what how do you see those two things as being different in the way that you work?
Seb Bardin 12:36
So with KPI, especially when it comes to this, you can go into this trap of click through rates, landing on page. You know, you name it engagement rate whatsoever. And then always do all these data sets, and try to analyze, optimize the campaign and so on. So of course, KPIs is important when, you know, let's say you're optimizing your digital campaigns, but the way you know, we can get things done, especially with OKR side is it really help when you need a, you know, let's say, support from senior management to get additional budget. So at the end of the day, you know, it's really focusing on, you know, one or two key results that you're trying to achieve rather than going into Oh, can I get one extra one that you know, 20 extra run? Because I want to reach X amount of for us? Yeah, on ecommerce side? You know, is it is it? Yeah. Is it the right thing to do? Or is it again, I get X amount, because I'm going to reach to get X amount of sales? Yeah, I thinkfor me, it's really a way to be focused on the main key results here.
Tom Ollerton 14:11
This episode of the Shiny New Object podcast is brought to you in partnership with MAD//Fest. Whether it's live in London or streamed online to the global marketing community, you can always expect the distinctive and daring blend of fast paced content, startup innovation pitches, and unconventional entertainment from MAD//Fest events. You'll find me causing trouble on stage recording live versions of this podcast and sharing a beer with the nicest and most influential people in marketing. Check it out at www.madfestlondon.com.
So we are at the halfway stage now. So we're going to talk about your shiny new object which is DTC or direct to consumer as it's also known. We're getting killed ourselves with three like three letter acronyms today. So DTC - what is it to you? What is it at Unilever and help the audience understand a little bit more about direct to consumer and what it means today.
Seb Bardin 15:14
So, yeah, direct to consumer platforms are definitely a way for advertisers brands to earn sales of product online. So, you know, concept is not a new concept, I guess, you know, it was definitely a sort of acceleration. During the pandemic, not only that, more and more businesses, established brands are going into that space. But also, there's also I've seen quite a lot of new innovations in, you know, out there, especially around the pandemic of people starting to sell products online. And this was also, thanks to the simplification of listing your product online with tools such as Shopify, just accelerated this, you know, like just looking out during a pandemic, I've got one of my neighbor who is good. He cooks nice cakes, and then decided to sell his cakes online. So you know, everyone now can just, you know, send a product online without having to rely on marketplace like eBay or marketplace from Amazon, and so on. So it's definitely, for me, a big, shiny new object.
Tom Ollerton 16:51
And so, the interesting thing that we're seeing as our clients move into direct to consumer is that you have people who have historically been brand people, brand managers and marketing directors who have operated mostly, it's certainly in FMCG. And they're kind of top of funnel, mid funnel space. But now that the pandemic and the rise as you say, the ease of getting into ecommerce or DTC that we're finding people with traditional marketing skill sets having to operate in a bottom of funnel place, which I think brings challenges for lots of different businesses. But is that your experience? Is Unilever kind of wedging top of the funnel people into the bottom? Or is it case of just kind of buying in expertise at the bottom? Help me understand how you're dealing with that attention?
Seb Bardin 17:47
What was really good is we have an amazing training program where, you know, to up the skills of a traditional marketeer, so definitely, I've always been a big push to up skills based on your level, you could, you know, say different type of trainings. So yeah, that's definitely something that was done. But also, I've seen it in a couple of places as well, where usually you used to have ecommerce team on one side and for the marketing team on the other side, in some cases, or in some cases, not always talking to each other. So it means in during this time is, you know, how can you bring those two teams together and not work in silos. And, you know, I've led to a proper end to end planning when it comes to marketing and leverage ecommerce, vice versa.
Tom Ollerton 18:46
And so, if a brand is listening to this podcast, and they've been recently tasked with, right, we need to get our DTC sorted, probably leaving it a bit late, but I imagine that is the case, what's the best way to get started? For a brand that traditionally hasn't had a DTC function?
Seb Bardin 19:06
I think there will be a few elements as well, as far as technological capability, which platform to choose, well, you know, in terms of ease of going in for sort of a market skills wise, do we have to bring external, you know, external accounts or upskill what we have in house. At the end of the day is also to be set up for success because, you know, we've only looked at the big players like Amazon and so on making money out of it, you know, it's not something that will happen. Well, you know, just seeing just quite, you know, after a quite quickly. So, I guess it's about you know, having a long term vision or where to drive. With DTC, it's not just a one off. So, you know, be ready to lose, you know, to lose money in the start, especially, with all the different costs that is required and then when are we starting to become profitable as well on it, then getting in so in some previous gigs is if there was some decision just to stop DTC because, you know, it was less than 10% of overall sales, for instance, so, so, again is, you know, further traditional retailers are still are still there. So, it's about making sure how to, to be profitable in DTC as well.
Tom Ollerton 20:42
And what you see is the best way to go because obviously, there's going to be cannibalization all over the place. Is it a case of selling products and products plus experiences on your DTC site or, you know, focusing on a niche product or have specific launches? And, obviously, you're gonna have to keep the Amazons of this world happy. What is the what is I mean, you don't need to tell us the the Unilever answer to that, but what are the what are the options that people consider?
Seb Bardin 21:10
Definitely, it's about considering something that you can't find everywhere else. But also that is convenient that you won't be having on Amazon or where you won't be able to find at your Tesco. Because, yeah, it's too big to carry and so on. So it's about having these products unique to your own ecommerce platform. Yeah, there are some very good examples out there of sale, especially around more multipack type of purchase. So that works really well, but also in more in the tech and consumer electronics IDs, ranging products that, you know, you won't be able to find elsewhere. So, so definitely, you know, about having, it's about having a unique proposition. But also another thing, also to bear in mind is what we know, especially ecommerce, it's about the logistics and the delivery side. So, you know, especially we, you know, we are in a world where we want it right now. So how can we make sure about, you know, we reduce the timeline between, you know, between purchase and delivery. So, that will be also key as well.
Tom Ollerton 22:34
So, what's your view on the value of getting better first party data via DTC than you might get through Amazon, or Amazon famously pretty tight lipped about what's going on from a data perspective, although I'm sure the more you spend the more you know, on those platforms, but is, even if it is expensive to set up, DTC, and even if it does, sitting around, you know, somewhere between one and 10% of total sales is, is one way to offset that cost or in the amount of effort you have to put into it, is that worth it because you're going to start getting a much clearer picture of who your consumer is based on the fact that you own the data and the process.
Seb Bardin 23:21
So, yeah, that's another thing as well, which is a data ownership side. So, again, we are more moving into the cookieless world, so the value of PII will be much more important and, and of course, that would be a way for brands to collect, you know, valuable first party data. And, of course, not only be used it as part of your DTC platform, but also can be used as part of your overall brand activities. Now just you know, having PII's and then leverage it on things like like, you know, the YouTubes and Facebook platforms is much more valuable than the big some retargeting and so on but you know, from users that are coming on your website, so definitely there's a longer picture of leveraging of a first party data as part of a DTC approach. And often as well is also another big opportunity is more when it comes to new product development because again, this is opportunity where you know you can trial a new products but probably not in the markets. And then if it's worked, yes, let's go and you know, and make these products available on you know, these bigger platform like Amazon, Tesco. While, it's sort of working, it's easier just to kill the product, directly from your DTC platform.
Tom Ollerton 25:03
Yeah, that's a really nice point. So who's nailing DTC the minute? Who do you look to outside of maybe your own category as, as being an inspiring leader in the space?
Seb Bardin 25:17
I guess, yeah. I would say, you know, some some, for me to be probably Apple that is really doing it properly. And again, we've been there before. But again, it's more we've all experienced, we learn more, it's about you know, bullshitty to, to highlight the product in a nice way, but also to make to create the demand directly from a website. But also, it's all the services that are around it. So when you go in the account to make sure that you know, when you have any products, any issues with your product, everything is done within the same platform. So yeah, I would say they are really good at it. And then, yeah, I took some of our offering end to end service as well, in terms of delivery available, should you have a driver to track your, your your product wait is which now becomes kind of kind of standard within within that space? Yeah, that will be probably quite a boring one. But they all need to get probably and they've been doing it for a few years now.
Tom Ollerton 26:32
Yeah. And they've got the budget to do it well, in fairness to them. So in terms of your own work at Unilever, what in the world of DTC and ecom are you most proud of?
Seb Bardin 26:44
I think it's really proud of the way we've been using our first party data that we have been collecting via, you know, our brand.com via our cleaning tips, platform. So yeah, it was it is really proud of the opportunity. But, you know, we've managed to use these first party data, and, again, moving forward into the cookieless world. So how can we also leverage this, you know, in different ways, but has been quite quite a big highlight, but was also adopted by different markets. And also, now we are doing it more and more on the ecommerce side. Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 27:34
So we're coming up on time now, unfortunately. |If someone wanted to get in touch with you to discuss innovations in DTC, but nothing too innovative, you know, in that can help you with your 80-15-5 split? How would you like them to get in touch with you?
Seb Bardin 27:51
Linkedin is always the best tool to do it. So the reason why is, again, when you get for me, it's all the visibility on LinkedIn. So you know, we come in contact, so if you need any referral, it's easy to ask. But also, I think it's a really great platform to you know, to, to learn more about the organization, what these potential partners are doing.
Tom Ollerton 28:25
And what makes really good outreach to Seb on LinkedIn, what should go in that?
Seb Bardin 28:32
A good outreach, I don't like to see my inbox with unread messages. So I will always go make sure everything is read and replied.
Tom Ollerton 28:46
That is, that is quite the offer. So thank you so much for your time.
Seb Bardin 28:50
That's all right. Thanks Tom.
Tom Ollerton 28:56
Hi, just before you go, I'd really appreciate it. If you could take the time to write a review of the shiny new object podcast on Apple podcasts or iTunes, whatever it's called these days, or whichever podcast provider you use, wherever any podcasts. So it would go a long way for us if you could just share the Word and give us a bit of support on those channels, such as be fantastic. If you haven't got time, that's also cool. And yeah, if you could tell your colleagues about the podcast and also, if possible, don't forget to subscribe. And I'd love to hear your feedback. If you'd like to speak on the podcast or be a guest or you think I'm asking the wrong questions, anything I'd be super interested to hear what you think so please email me at Tom@automatedcreative.net. Thanks so much.
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