Episode 219 / Jeric Griffin / Mars Petcare / Performance Marketing Manager
Podcast: Why Automation with Curation is the Future of Marketing
As the Performance Marketing Manager at Mars Petcare, Jeric Griffin combines his background in SEO with DTC marketing and lower funnel advertising tactics. His marketing experience has led him to believe that putting the customer first is great, but needs to be done without overthinking. He’s also picked automation without curation as his Shiny New Object and explains why AI is great, but automating in the extreme hurts quality and will hurt a company’s bottom line eventually.
Too many marketers “put the customer first” in the extreme, spending excessive amounts of time researching their audience but not actually working on their pain points. Successful marketing is about more than that: it requires empathy with the customer’s needs and avoiding the creation of robotic marketing personas among other things.
The “robotic” aspect of marketing is key to Jeric’s pick for his Shiny New Object - automation without curation. In the context of the rise of AI and of generative tools like Bard and Chat GPT, he warns that automation can be a time saver, but that uncurated content lacks a human touch and the creativity needed to actually resonate with audiences.
A great example of the importance of curation is how Mars Petcare are confronted with high-quality, beautiful creative that clearly hasn’t used real pets and pet owners. In the end, an animal owner will be able to tell immediately that an image is scripted and fake. You cannot gain consumers’ trust without being authentic. Hence the importance of curating content at every step of the creative process, even when using AI or automated tools.
For Jeric, there’s a clear difference between automating and optimising. His company’s work with Automated Creative is a good example. AC’s tech is able to save Mars time in analysing what ads work well and why. That piece represents optimisation on top of automation - and you need to have both to be successful in today’s marketing.
Hear more about optimisation vs automation, how Automated Creative and Mars Petcare work together to maximise creative effectiveness, and why brands’ complacency breeds more competition, on the latest episode here.
Transcript
The following gives you a good idea of what was said, but it’s not 100% accurate.
Jeric Griffin 0:00
Put the customer first. But don't overthink it. Putting the customer first is definitely the most important thing in marketing. But at the same time you have to put yourself in the shoes of a customer and not make this persona something that is a ghost that can't be caught, if you will.
Tom Ollerton 0:43
Hello, and welcome to the shiny new object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton, I'm the founder of automated creative we are a creative effectiveness ad tech platform. But today isn't about or Automated Creative, it is about one man's vision for the future of advertising. And every week, I get to interview interesting, senior, hilarious, challenging, different people from all over the industry. And today's no different. I'm on a call with Jeric Griffin, who is performance marketing manager at Mars Petcare. And I have to be on my very, very best behavior today because Jeric is actually a relatively new client. So we'll see how that goes. But Jeric, for anyone who doesn't know you what you do, could you give the audience a bit of background?
Jeric Griffin 1:23
Yeah. So performance marketing at Mars Petcare US, a lot of lower funnel advertising tactics, I specifically work on the DTC team there. But inevitably, my SEO background always gets me into doing that as well. So performance, marketing, and really all of its tactics, if you will.
Tom Ollerton 1:47
So with that mixed background in performance, and SEO, what has been the best investment of your time, energy and money in your career?
Jeric Griffin 1:55
I mean, besides my own, like education, to be able to do multiple of those things like really my time, energy and money going into good people, whether that be hires or partners, or whatever the case may be finding the right team is really the difference between winning and losing, the difference between success and failure. I have a lot of horsepower as an individual. And that obviously can take a person great lengths, but it does have a limit if you don't have the right people around you. So investing time, energy and money. Very importantly, into the right people around you, above you, however you want to describe that is definitely the what's gotten me where I am today.
Tom Ollerton 2:38
So I heard an interesting podcast today. I can't remember the name. Very good, I'll share it in the notes. But what he was talking about is that people who interview well, they, they're good at that right, they interview well. That's not necessarily anything to do with the job. Right? So what are your techniques for understanding whether someone's really going to be a powerful addition to your team or not?
Jeric Griffin 3:00
So I use lots of hypotheticals. You could even I guess you could call it role play. It's a really good question because I have hired close to 400 people in my career. So obviously, I've interviewed, you know, lots more for those different roles. And over the years have like really refined the questions that I asked in those interviews specifically to your point. And so the role playing is a huge part of that. And this it gives my wife hives that I do this, but honestly, really the most telling question that I ask in an interview and I save that for the very last question is what type of animal would you be and why? And you would be blown away by the answers that I get to that. And in a lot of cases that can really make or break an interview, especially if I'm like, really on the fence about the person. Like, for example, I had, I had a gal one time that I was interviewing, and she... I was really on the fence about it, and I really wasn't quite sure and her role was very much a worker bee type role. It was very much a you had to be very busy had to be on top of things very organized. And it was it was the most reflective reflexive answer I had ever heard to that question like without skipping a beat, she answered, I'd be a sloth because then I wouldn't have to ever do anything. And I was like, Okay, that's all I need to know. Thank you for your time. And in other cases I've had I've had the opposite where I've had these wildly intriguing answers that like really swung me in favor of the candidates. So to your point, being able to interview well is one thing as you can prepare for a lot of things and you can even prepare for a question like that. But when you have a combination of things like that, that keep people off there are on their toes and then also put them like in a hypothetical for the job that you're interviewing for. Generally you will get the real person to come out.
Tom Ollerton 4:50
That is unbelievable Jeric. That is going straight into our interview questions for Automated Creative. I can't believe it. Alright, so what animal would you be?
Jeric Griffin 4:59
I would be an Orca. And the answer is not rehearsed. I... thinking of myself as an orca actually is the reason why I came up with this question I started asking it at interviews is because I don't watch a ton of like animal stuff on National Geographic, but I did watch one thing on orcas with my son. And it was incredible how they worked so well together as a team. Like, I mean, the things that they do, it's almost like sci fi, but it's real life like they there's they're documented doing these things. And like, I was a not a very good one. But I'm very much into sports and played and played, played sports was an athlete, still play basketball with all the old dads here in my neighborhood. And like, just working together as a team is something that can be applied to every aspect of life, I'm gonna my kids who are five and three this morning, unloading the dishwasher as their chore and teaching them how to do it together as a team to be more efficient. I mean, it can be applied to anything in life. And orcas work more well together as a team than any other animal. And so that would, that would definitely be my pick.
Tom Ollerton 6:05
I'm learning far more about you, Jeric, than I thought.
Jeric Griffin 6:09
I'm sure I'm sure you did. Like I said if my wife listens to this show, the hair on her neck will be raised. But those are, those are the real facts, man.
Tom Ollerton 6:19
So from interviewing advice to marketing advice, what is your top marketing tip that you find yourself using or sharing most of?
Jeric Griffin 6:28
So I tell people to put the customer first. But don't overthink it. Because anybody that's been to a marketing class like marketing 101 is going to say, well, of course you put the customer first. But they tend to overthink that in terms like a specific example will be personas, like we come up with these marketing personas and like, this is the person we want to market to. And all of those things are great, like personas have their place in a marketing strategy. But I was on a call last week with a group and the personas was 80% of their strategy. And I was like guys, like Have you have you looked at where you're going to send them like for the ads, where they're going to be coming to on the website and the landing page seo like none of that stuff was optimized at all. But they were so proud of this persona that they came up with. And I was like, well, you found who you want to advertise to or market to. But when you get those, when you get your message in front of those people, like it's not going to resonate, because it's not their message. And so again, I think putting the customer first is definitely the most important thing in marketing. But at the same time, you have to put yourself in the shoes of a customer and not make make this persona something that is a ghost that can't be caught, if you will.
Tom Ollerton 7:40
So my pet peeve with the idea of putting the customer at the center, is if you put the customer at the center, you they you wouldn't advertise to them at all. The last thing they need is an interruption from an advert, right?
Jeric Griffin 7:51
Exactly. Yeah. And that's, what you just said is the reason why there are like 1% of every ad ever created is worth anything. Because most of the time they are this intrusive thing that is annoying. It's cliche. Generally, the volume is too loud on it intentionally like all those things turn off the consumer. So like, as you said, if you're the consumer, you don't want that. So why on earth would you put that out there to potential customers of your product or service.
Tom Ollerton 8:26
So I'm gonna move on to your shiny new object, which is incredibly close to home, but it is automation without curation. So what does that mean, Jeric? And why is that your shiny new object?
Jeric Griffin 8:41
So AI is the big thing in today's world. I mean, the in the New York Stock Exchange, the ticker AI was up 15% Yesterday, I mean, people are just going nuts about it. There's all types of thing, great tools out there to use, I use many of them myself. But the problem that I'm seeing already with this, and even before AI was the thing, like people are automating things to a point where their quality is suffering so much that they don't even realize it until it's too late. And I think that's probably going to be a make or break thing in the AI age, if you will. And it's like into the original SEO age, like back in the day when we were doing SEO 15 years ago. You know, you could just keyword stuff things and add all these backlinks. And you were at the top of Google and nobody knew the difference. But then obviously as Google started and other search engines started becoming more adept to this and more sophisticated, then those types of tactics didn't work anymore and SEOs had to get better and become really good at their job instead of just stuffing all this stuff in there. AI is kind of the same way right now. Like there are tons of these examples. I got an ad this morning, as a perfect example of that. This was saying how you can make $30,000 a month by automating SEO for a bunch of SEO clients. And I kind of chuckled because like, this isn't new, these people are doing it with an AI tool like Bard or Chat GPT or something. But it's not new, this thing has been around for a long time. A perfect example that I have a background in the automotive marketing industry. And we did SEO for all of our automotive clients. And we came across this one client that came to us and wanted us to do SEO. And so we were auditing their current website. And this website had over 400 automated pages, that were all identical with the exception of one little variable that was changed, whether it be a city name, or a zip code, or something like that. And they were suffering because of this, because obviously, the quality of those pages was terrible. But they were, they were showboating about having so many of them. And I told him, I said, guys, SEO is, is much more about quality than quantity. Like you're automating all this work, and you make sure you're probably saving a lot of money by not having humans do this. But by not having one human check the work before it goes out, like you're hurting yourself, that that client inevitably became one of our clients. And by making them a new website that was actually optimized for modern SEO, we grew their organic search traffic by over 30% in the first month. Now, SEO is generally a long term game, not a short term game, don't anybody listen to this and go, Oh, gosh, well, I can do SEO in 30 days. But that's how bad this automated SEO tactic was on their old website to where it was, it was a lot of low hanging fruit for us to make it that much better, that much faster. So I mean, there's tons of examples that we that we could walk through with this. But like, the automation without somebody going and curating or vetting what is being automated, the output of that work after the fact is already becoming a problem in the AI age. And it's going to build little companies overnight, it's gonna make people a lot of money overnight, but it will crash and burned really, in a fiery way, just like SEO did at the end of the Blackhat era.
Tom Ollerton 12:11
So you said you've got many examples? I'd love to hear more.
Jeric Griffin 12:15
Yeah, sure. So, you know, I work in pet care at Mars. And you know, there's all kinds of companies that come to us and say, Hey, we want to do your, you know, creative, we want to do your SEO, we want to do your HR, whatever it may be. And one of the things that we get most often is people coming in saying, Hey, here's this creative that we have, we shot these videos, or these pictures of these pet owners, with their pets, dogs and cats is primarily our our bread and butter. And they say look at this amazing quality. So I look at the I look at sa Yes, I can clearly see this was shot with a 4k camera, like it could not be more crystal clear. You know, what great lighting, what great color, the tone and all that great stuff. But that Dalmatian in this video is clearly not the pet of that actor who is sitting there with it trying to give it a treat, because that dog is very timidly walking up to that actor with its nose stretched all the way out to grab that treat, and then get away from that person. And so my response is always I'm selling these treats and foods and supplements and dietary products to pet owners of dogs and cats, who they have a pet who is like a child to them a furbaby as a lot of them call it. And if they see this incredibly high produced video or image of a dog or cat that clearly does not belong to the person in the image, like that's not going to resonate with them, it goes back to our conversation earlier about putting yourself in the customers shoes. Like if I'm a pet owner, I want to see somebody with a pet that really is theirs. And it's clear that it's theirs because it loves them and it's comfortable around them. And those are the types of things because these companies will say we can spit you out 1000s of these pictures and videos and it's only going to cost you know a fraction of what you're doing now and so that's great, but they're all worthless. Like I can't use these in any type of marketing you know whether it's advertising or organic stuff on the website or whatever it may be I can't use that and a lot of them really especially if we get on a live call like or screenshare or something like it really befuddles them when I say that and that is kind of the bigger problem not because they can't help me in my business but because I'm telling them like your business is gonna die if you don't figure this out and start producing better quality content instead of just crap tons of quantity of it.
Tom Ollerton 15:29
Where have you seen it fall down in terms of copy?
Jeric Griffin 15:32
Well, copy I think is one of the biggest things right now because there are terms of people using Chat GPT, and Bard and all these other tools to write all their copy for them. And I think those tools are excellent at prompts and giving you outlines for copy, but writing the copy itself, like I was an editor in a past life, and I led a team of editors for a content network called Rent Media Network, which was that's that's been at least a decade ago. And at that time, our whole thing was editing for quality, which everybody should be of course that was way before you know your AI tools. But today people are basically trying to replace their copywriters, their human copywriters with Chat GPT or Bard or something like that entirely. And that's where they're missing the boat. I actually had a personal consulting client come to me recently and said, Hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna lay off my entire writing staff because we can use Chat GPT. And it's gonna save me, you know, X hundreds of 1000s of dollars a year. And I said, Well, that's great. But so you need to be ready to build a new company about this time next year. And he looked at me like I was crazy. And I said, this stuff that you're spitting out with Chat GPT and Bard, I was like, it's, it's evident to any human being with a brain that it was written by a robot. I was like, there's no tone of voice to it. There's no, there's no connection. Like, if I'm reading through this, like I'm, I'm completely tuning out, it's like, it's like that boring book where you've read the same paragraph seven times, because you keep rereading it at the end of it, you can't remember what you just read that was so boring or poorly written. And, again, that's not to say that like Chat GPT, and AI and Bard and tools like that don't have their place. They absolutely do. But it's our whole topic of automation without curation. You can't just say, Okay, Chat GPT, spit out an article and then you copy and paste it and you go, and you publish it as a blog post, and then you go gracious, why did my ranking on my website just suffer so terribly in my Google rankings? That's because you didn't curate it. Chat GPT maybe included something you know, that was wildly inaccurate, or, or just factually incorrect, not to mention the things that we just talked about, about the copy being very robotic. And again, that doesn't mean you shouldn't use those things you should ask Chat GPT to write that, and then you should go back and massage it and make sure it's factually correct. Number one, make sure it'saccurate to the topic that you're talking about. But then also making sure that you massage it so that it does sound like a human read it. Because these these tools that are not humans are great things for us to use as just what they are tools. But we have to remember, we are marketing to people. And people don't connect with tools, they connect with other people. So if it's obvious that something has been written by a robot and not being curated by a human, then it's just not going to work.
Tom Ollerton 18:30
So my shorthand for this is people confuse automation with optimization, right? Automation is the punch in some inputs, and then the output appears, right?
Jeric Griffin 18:40
Right.
Tom Ollerton 18:40
Whereas optimization is doing the optimal thing. And the optimal things, what you're talking about right is you get the machine to do the grunt work, or the most part or get the ball rolling, but actually, it needs the human with their soft understanding of the task at hand in order to make it optimal. And that's totally our approach at AC, you know, we get compared to something like a DCO, which is pretty much just like an automation thing that you just spew out lots of ads. But the secret to what we do is having that human intelligence strategic bid all the way through it. And that's where we get super nerdy, we get super excited about it. It's optimal. When you've got a human on machine. It's automated where you just got the machine.
Jeric Griffin 19:15
Yeah, absolutely. Well, and that's one of the reasons why I'm a client of yours now is because, you know, when we were talking through that, it was like, Okay, well, you guys have the automation with the curation or to your point in the optimization. And and I think you said the perfect words there. And that using these AI tools to automate the grunt work is exactly what needs to happen. Like, for example, there's this manual report that's been being done by my department for going on two years now. And we've yet to find the perfect way to automate that. And I was talking with a consultant recently about automating with AI and he was saying, oh, yeah, we can automate this. We can automate that and I said, it's okay, great. And so he showed me a prototype. And I was like, well, this prototype is great. But you've taken out all of the elements of the report that made it useful, like all the numbers are there, but like, now we're back to where we were before we even started building this report manually. And of course, the report has, you know, all kinds of data in it. And that data in like Excel spreadsheets, or Google Sheets and things like that is able to spit out charts and graphs, which is what we need to be able to see trends in the data and to your point, then to be able to make optimizations off of those things. And the whole point that this guy missed when he was trying to, you know, build us this dashboard was automating everything to a point to where it was so robotic, that it wasn't useful for a human anymore. And so to your point, whether it's optimizing something like a report like that to do grunt work, or like, what you guys do at automated creative is taking things that we're doing manually in like an ad ops perspective and going, okay, which ad is performing the best? Let me go and look at the data. And then let me go and look and see what's different about it. Like, your technology is able to do that part for us. And so, again, that piece is optimization on top of automation, which you have to have both those to be successful. But there's still a human at the end of it, that's going to just overlook it and make sure that nothing has gone haywire. And that doesn't mean that something like a chat GPT won't be able to write an article in really, you know, elegant human nature and tone of voice someday, but they just can't do that yet. Which is why to your point, we have to optimize what we're doing, in addition to automate it, because if you do, if you do one or the other, you're not going to succeed. You got to have both.
Tom Ollerton 21:48
I heard relatively recently that the equivalent number of synapses that Chat GPT has somewhere between the hedgehog and a squirrel. I think squirrel might be worth four years and the Hedgehog is worth three years. And that was just a beautiful data visualization. Really, for me. It's like how much of your marketing do you really want to put in the hands of a hedgehog?
Jeric Griffin 22:10
In fairness to hedgehogs Sonic the Hedgehog was popular 20 years ago, and my five year old son is obsessed with him today. So maybe they were on to something.
Tom Ollerton 22:27
So this may be too personal a question, but how are you using automation with curation successfully yourself? How are you using the Bards and the chat GPTs outside of the kind of oh, look at this funny thing that I send to my partner or whoever you sent it to? Like, you know, in a work context, well, given away the company secrets, how are you using automation with curation successfully?
Jeric Griffin 22:49
So using Chat GPT, we use it for SEO, we use it for content creation, which is somewhat related to SEO, and I'm a coder. I mean, I use it for coding as well, like yesterday was a perfect example where I was trying to I was building this one specific element for a client that was a little bit wonky, who was quirky, whatever word you want to describe, it wasn't it wasn't it wasn't very straightforward. And I thought, Man, this is gonna take me a really long time to code this, obviously, I can do it. But I thought, I wonder if I fit this into a Bard or a Chat GPT if they would be able to help me with that. And so I prompted it, I said, Hey, I'm trying to build this one specific element, this, these are things I need to do this, I need to look like. And it spit out the code for me almost instantly. Now, to your point about curation, the code wasn't perfect, but it saved me. Probably an hour's worth of work on just coding it all myself, because I was able to take the block of code that they that it spit out, change a couple of things in it and then go instead of coding the entire thing from scratch. Likewise, with with copy, like we've had it, write copy for us for ads for blog posts, for landing pages on websites, for you know, video scripts. And when we spit those things out, I always will take that and give it to our lead copywriter. And then she will curate it and say, Hey, these prompts are no good. Or I'm going to read, rephrase these are I'm going to take the script, the basis of the script is great, but I'm going to revise these different elements of it, make it more humanized, more tone, whatever the tone of voice needs to be whatever the if it needs to be friendly or serious, or whatever the case may be. And she then does that before we ended up using it. So again, it saves lots of time for the original grunt work to be done to your point. But then we still curate that before we run with it and that's even that's even not not let run it running with it to spit out the the actual product or the actual output or asset that's curating it before we even run with it a strategy and so that's what I tell people is like every point in the process where you're using the AI, you don't have to stop and check its work like you're grading a math test but just check at a high level is everything coming to us the way that we expected it to? And before it leaves our hands, is it the way we want our consumers to see it. And if you don't have that, that middle piece there, then you run into, you know, lots of issues. So the coding piece of it, the SEO piece, the copy element, I mean, those are just three examples, I can think of off the top of my head that we're using it today. But the important piece of that is we are still curating all of it, before the assets are released into the wild, so to speak.
Tom Ollerton 25:31
So one thing that worries me a little bit is, if you just extrapolate out a little bit into the future, that this technology is cheap, right? It's like free or $40 a month, or you know, $10 for Midjourney or... it's 10s of dollars, right? So it's basically accessible to every business. And I understand these doomsayers on LinkedIn or wherever else go. And like, if you don't combine humans and AI, then you know, your business will fall over. But a lot of the examples that I've heard about and seen are efficiency plays, right? So it's, you know, you saved yourself an hour's coding, or you came up with 50 different copy lines, that a writer kind of shaped and formed and did the curation piece on, but is there a version of the future where like, every pet care brand does that, every shoe brand home was whatever it is, everyone just uses chat GPT to save themselves that hour. So you save a bit of time there, maybe hire one less person here. But then then it becomes like, it's just everyone's doing it. So then where's the advantage, it's only a disadvantage not to do it at that point. As opposed to it being an advantage.
Jeric Griffin 26:38
It definitely is. And I think when we get to that point, just like with everything else, how the technology or the strategy evolves over time, it's going to be there will be new steps of curation or, and or human element of it that has to come into play. So to your, for your example, every single, you know, pet care industry in the world starts doing that, they start automating things or trying to, or maybe they use chat GPT for all of these things and they have a human that's curating it. And then they get to a point to where it's, it's so automated, that everybody's doing the same thing that will be when it's important to put a human back at the beginning of the process, not not just the middle of it, but back at the beginning of the process, because AI very likely, by the time, you know, you and I are dead If the good Lord keeps us on the earth for a while. But at the end of our lifetimes, I imagine all these AI tools will be pretty creative. But based on everything we know about them right now, their creativity is limited by what they have learned. Whereas when we get to a point to where we put humans back at the beginning of it, humans are not limited by that, like, my, my three year old daughter is more creative than I am. And that's not an exaggeration. I'm not a creative as a person, but she is just by nature. And so when we get to a point where everybody's doing the same thing to your point, then we'll have to have a human who is more creative than the technology at the beginning of the process to restart the whole evolution piece. Because that person will say, hey, what if we change the process? And we added these elements? What if we added these new marketing strategies? What if we tried this new technology? You know, what if we tried these prompts, or these key words that nobody's ever tried before, and then the whole evolution piece starts all over again, it probably doesn't take nearly as long and it's probably not nearly as intense. But that's those moments when that type of thing happened. That's how new companies are born. That's how new careers are born. Sometimes that's how new niche industries are born. So obviously, that's just one, one, you know, individual's perspective on it. But I think no matter what happens, or when it happens, we will always have to insert human creativity back into it at some point to spur it on when things get stale.
Tom Ollerton 28:59
My slight worry is that I'm with you on the idea that you need that raw human creative thought or weirdness, or abstract thinking at the start for the cogs to turn in the way that they work. But my sort of pet hate on something like Netflix, is that Netflix don't need to make great shows Netflix needs need to make shows that are just good enough to stop you unsubscribing.
Jeric Griffin 29:26
They do. But eventually, if they're only making shows that are just going to have to stop you from unsubscribing that opens the door for a competitor to come along and say hey, our stuff's way better. And at the beginning it'll be cheaper because they're a newcomer. And so that's how those companies you know, Netflix is a perfect example. Like they go public. You know, they're now a publicly traded company and they have to worry about shareholders and everybody else's opinion and what they need to do to make more money and they start cutting corners to your point they start automating things or making the shows, you know, just gonna have to keep you from unsubscribing, which means that the shows are not great quality and that complacency always opens the door for new competition and innovation. And I think that it probably will take a long time to get there. And so a company like Netflix in this hypothetical scenario will make truckloads of money in the interim. But there will always be an end to that if they stop innovating, no matter what vertical they're in, or industry they're in or what product or service they're offering.
Tom Ollerton 30:31
Jeric. Love that complacency opens the door for new competition. That's a lovely way to finish the podcast. And thank you for being our guest. If someone wants to get in touch with you about any of this stuff. Where's the best place to do that? And what makes a killer outreach message to you?
Jeric Griffin 30:46
LinkedIn is the best place to get in touch with me. All of my social links are on my personal website, Jericgriffin.com. And I would say a great outreach, I would tell anybody who's doing any type of outreach to ask whoever you're reaching out to whether it's me or whoever asked them about a pain point rather than giving me your copied and pasted sales pitch snap. Now granted, some of those sales pitches are pretty creative these days, but they still are easily lost in the clutter, because they are what they are. Instead shoot me a note that says, How can I make your life easier when it comes to your email marketing or your fill in the blank, whatever it is, from me individually, you're much more likely to get a response.
Tom Ollerton 31:26
That's awesome advice. Thank you, Jeric. I will see you all next week for our next guest. But in the meantime, thank you so much for your time.
Jeric Griffin 31:35
Yeah, thank you, man.
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