Episode 201 / Simon Peel / Haleon / VP Global Media
Podcast: How to Improve Messaging by Incorporating Traditional and Modern Media
As VP of Global Media at Haleon, Simon Peel is in charge of making good choices in advertising placements. He started his career in agencies like MediaCom and PHD, before heading media at Twentieth Century Fox and Adidas. His Shiny New Object is traditional media thinking. Here’s why.
When it comes to making your advertising stand out, having a solid strategy in place beats running after shiny new objects. For Simon, traditional media thinking means incorporating approaches and strategies that have always been effective into how we go about marketing today.
Human nature suffers from a “complexity bias” driving us to communicate things in a more difficult way to make them seem more important. It also leads us to run after new technologies, new approaches, and just basically “shiny new objects” without there being a need to do so.
Simon thinks that “the thinking, the strategy and the planning is the same… when it comes to advertising: you’re just trying to sell someone something or make them feel or think better about your brand or product.” The core concepts haven’t changed, so we need to “go back and simplify the message” rather than keep building onto what’s already there.
Why is simplicity important? To catch the consumer’s eye and stand out. When everyone is “zigging,” a clever brand should “zag.” This means using all the new technologies and opportunities, but in a way that complements a core strategy. And the latter should really be built on very simple concepts, which ultimately haven’t changed throughout the years.
Listen to more tips on getting the competitive advantage in today’s digital marketing world, find out Simon’s favourite marketing books, and get his top tips for new starters in the industry, on the latest episode of the podcast here.
Transcript
The following gives you a good idea of what was said, but it’s not 100% accurate.
Tom Ollerton 0:05
Hello, and welcome to the shiny new object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton. I'm the founder of automated creative. And this is a weekly podcast about the future of the marketing and advertising industries. I get to speak to someone usually fairly senior fairly interesting. And this week is no different. I'm on a call with Simon Peel, who is the VP global media at Haleon so a wonderful guest to have on the show. Simon, for anyone who doesn't know who you are and what you do. Could you give us a bit of background?
Simon Peel 0:35
Yeah, sure. Well, firstly, thanks for inviting me on Tom. Appreciate it, very nice to chat. I am, like you said the VP of global media, it sounds fancy. But it basically means I oversee a team that oversees a media budget where we, you know, spend some money on advertising placements. Yeah, so that's what I do.
Simon Peel 0:35
And before that, what was the journey to get to that?
Simon Peel 1:02
Oh, yeah, sorry. So before that I was the Global Head of media at Adidas for about seven years. I was based in Germany, which is where the headquarters are, and then Amsterdam. And then prior to that I was the EMEA head of media at 20 Century Fox. So that was before they got bought out by Disney working on theatrical releases, which again is a fancy way of saying cinema. And then before that I was at agencies, there's that wonderful agency of PhD, Mediacom and Mindshare. So I started my career in media agencies.
Tom Ollerton 1:45
So you've done, you've ticked all the boxes, pretty much all the all the big media boxes, I had no idea you did all that stuff. So that's fantastic. So I've got very high expectations of this conversation.
Simon Peel 1:56
I'm gonna I'm gonna disappoint I'm afraid. Sorry, mate.
Tom Ollerton 1:59
So first up, what is the marketing book that you refer to most often?
Simon Peel 2:07
Yeah, good question. So there's actually there's a couple and I know, I'm probably not allowed to say that. But the obvious ones that I guess everyone refers to, is "How brands grow" by Byron Sharp, "The long and short of it" by Binet and Field and like, there's a number of others, by the way, I love Binet and Field. And my favorite one is actually "Media in focus" for, I guess, if you're head of media, for obvious reasons. But the one that I, I tell people about the most is one, which isn't necessarily about marketing, but slash strategy is called "Good strategy / Bad strategy." And it's by a guy called Richard Rumelt, whose name I hope I'm pronouncing correctly. And it's basically about you know, the errors that people make when they think they're coming up with a strategy and some of the stuff in it is great, because it's kind of like saying, you know, fluff and shiny new things, isn't really a strategy, you need to kind of diagnose a problem, understand what the issue is, basically be a bit British about things, you know, quite pessimistic. And then find a solution, and then go and implement that solution. So it really like simplifies what a strategy is. But it also highlights what a strategy isn't. So I tend to recommend that book to people that are kind of interested in, you know, how do you change things if you're looking to change things?
Tom Ollerton 3:37
Yeah, ironically, a few marketing books I've ever read, I have read this book, I can't remember anything from it. Just Googling it now. So I'm just trying to... remind me what the kind of core tenets of it and the diagnosis is the first bit and then it's guiding policy and then coherent action, as I understand it?
Simon Peel 3:55
Yeah. Yeah, basically. So this is three things, right? So it's diagnose, come up with a direction. So diagnose, direction, and then implement if you're, if you're looking to really simplify it. And the emphasis is on the diagnosis, like what is going wrong, what is the problem? You know, what is shit that you want to change? And, again, being British and being pessimistic, or, you know, positive in outlook negative in thought, it's like the perfect approach because like, Oh, here's the problem. Now I need to figure out what I need to do to change it. You get rid of all of the things that aren't necessary, like all the crap that kind of, infiltrates your direction, and then you focus on this one thing, and then you go out and implement it and then, you know, it will work for like two or three years, hopefully, if you're lucky. And then you're going to have to change it again, because a new set of problems have occurred from going in this certain direction, and therefore you need to adapt, like diagnose the problem again, adapt, come up with a new direction and off you go again. So, um, yeah, that's the general synopsis. I hope I've got that right. Otherwise, I'll look like right muppet.
Tom Ollerton 5:16
So that's the book you recommend. Well, I always ask guests, do you have a marketing tip that you share most often, so whether that's a junior member of your team, or someone on your team who's not going in the right direction, you pull out this quote, to inspire or fix things.
Simon Peel 5:33
I don't think it's a quote. One thing that recently I've been telling people, and I've been trying to heed my own advice is, you know, just don't listen to everyone or listen, but you don't need to adhere to everyone's ideas and opinions. Because if you do, you just don't, you don't do anything. You're so hampered by a shackle that, you know, you've got all of these sort of conflicting ideas from different people that are holding you back. So it is good to listen to people. And then, you know, make your own judgment, but then stick to it, like, don't worry that you're going to piss some people off. That's, unfortunately, the nature of doing a job reasonably well, hopefully. So yeah, that would be the main thing and also, like, try and keep things really simple. I think one of the best things actually, in advertising, which kind of recurs when you, you know, read some stuff around is that there is this kind of tendency to overcomplicate things, I think there's actually something called the complexity bias, which is like human nature has this sort of need to complicate things to make us seem more intelligent than we are. And actually, certainly, in advertising, the idea is to make something that is quite complex, got a problem or a business problem. And you need to make it as simple as possible so that people understand why they should buy a product. And I think that's always a good one. It's like, don't talk in corporate jargon. Just try and simplify things and behave like a human being rather than, you know, some mumbo jumbo from corporate communications, or whatever it might be.
Tom Ollerton 7:29
Yeah, I totally agree. And having worked at agencies for many years, just those decks that seem to have like a small novel on every page. And what we always try and do at Automated Creative is just take stuff out. Just remember, if you can remove a word, and it still makes sense, remove it, and pull everything back to the core. And that's... simple comes from drilling down from complicated, I think, but sometimes people don't keep going, they just go to complicated and stay there.
Simon Peel 7:59
Well, that's it. I mean, particularly in corporate environments, like there's also this sort of desperate need to talk in acronyms. And like, it's really interesting, because it's so exclusive. You know, if you don't understand the acronym, then like, you have to ask, and then you're going to feel like a clown in front of your peers. So it's almost like, if you know the acronym, you're really clever. And if you don't, it hampers your ability to be on par with people. So I think all of that sort of jargon stuff,if you just talk like a normal person, you know, how you would talk to your family? I think you're gonna succeed in terms of influencing people a lot more. And I definitely think that's true in advertising, you know, trying to have a really complicated message about why your product so great, so people don't give a shit. You know, they're so busy. And they've got so many adverts hitting them every day and brands trying to engage with them. You know, like, they just don't people don't care. Like I'm much more interested in my son playing a video game and whether I can play with him than if someone is trying to sell me something that it's got this unique selling proposition, you know, like, if you just keep it simple. I think people are more likely to pay attention.
Tom Ollerton 9:20
Do you know my favorite advertising acronym is T L. A.
Simon Peel 9:28
What's that?
Tom Ollerton 9:29
Three letter acronym.
Simon Peel 9:33
That's good, I'm gonna start using that.
Tom Ollerton 9:37
Thanks, James Mitchell for that one. So right, we're gonna move to talking about your shiny new object, which is an interesting one. Your shiny new object is traditional media thinking which from the outset, doesn't sound like a shiny new thing at all. But I think that's your point. So can you help me understand why traditional media thinking is your shiny new object and why you think it represents the future of what this industry should be doing?
Simon Peel 10:05
Yeah, I've, um, I've kind of thought this for a while. So I'm one of those Muppets that have got, you know, really deeply involved in certain areas like digital and when I was at Adidas, we looked at programmatic advertising as a, as a competitive advantage, this is like in 2014. So it was a while ago. And, you know, we knew that it was opaque, and there was all this arbitrage and dogshit going on in the industry. So we were like, well, let's turn that weakness into a strength and let's go and be really good at it. So, myself and a couple of colleagues, you know, we went after that, but we were also going after it as a representation of like, how to do planning, and media planning properly, you know, like, as long as things are transparent, then, and you're not over emphasizing a particular area, then it allows the planners in the media agency and the creative agency to come up with the best idea and then implement the best idea rather than necessarily stick something in a certain area. And the reason we went into programmatic was just to ensure that it was transparent. You know, it wasn't over emphasized, and we're trying to, like, make it transparent. It sounds ridiculous, but emphasize our approach on it so that we wouldn't over emphasize on it. I know, that sounds daft. But hopefully you get the drift. And I think, as you go through that, you know, and all these other sort of shiny new objects, just thoughts, I've mentioned that, but you realize that actually, a lot of the traditional thinking, a lot of the ways that stuff has been done historically, has always been the right way. It's just we get so confused and attracted to this, you know, this thing that's brand new, I think it's like ChatGPT, or whatever it's called at the moment, or, you know, Open AI, that everyone's talking about, it's gonna change... revolutionize my world, maybe it will, but still you need to base it on thinking that derives from like, 100, 15, 30 years ago, 10 years ago, you know, and, like have the elements that are really important in place first, before you stick these sort of fancy new objects on top of it. And, and that's kind of what I mean with, with being traditional kind of thing, like the thinking, but the strategy and the planning is the same, you know, basically, when it comes to advertising, you're just trying to sell someone some thing or make them feel or think better about your brand or your product, that doesn't really change. And then people don't like advertising, that has progressively increased, I think. And I think that's because we get so bogged down with all of these sort of sharp, again, sorry, shiny new objects, but you know, like just bombarding people with ads that are shit, when we need to go back and just simplify the message, make it brilliant, make the brands famous, and all of the other stuff will fall in place. And it's good to use some of the other stuff all of the new technologies and opportunities, but they should complement the strategy. And that's kind of my point with this. I also do think... sorry, going down a rabbit hole now, but I also do think with traditional media, so analog media, God forbid, you say analog, is there's a real opportunity, you know, I and I shouldn't say this, because if there is anyone listening, that might be a competitor, hopefully there won't be but if there is, then you're gonna make, there's a competitive advantage in using analog media, because the reach is still relatively good. You know, obviously, it's on a decline, but the costs are down massively. So your cost per reach is going to be much better on that than on YouTube as an example or on the latest streaming channel. So there's not only should you be using it because it complements the creative strategy that you've got, you know, this sort of traditional media approach. But there's also a competitive advantage to it. So for me it feels like a huge opportunity that people are neglecting. So that's my shiny new object is fuck it. I'm gonna say analog media. Let's do that.
Tom Ollerton 14:42
So, my issue with this is that I agree and if you have a great placement somewhere, lots of people are going to see it and this medium being the message to a degree. My issue with it is that if you're going for a solo message or solo visual, fundamentally, most brands are gonna guess what that should be. Right? Like out of home, right? You might think we talked about this color pink, you know, 24 sheet in Shoreditch, someone's going to scratch their chin and go, this is the right image, this is the right bit of copy, they don't know that, it's a guess. Whereas in a digital optimized world where we operate, not wanting to talk about AC too much, is you can't hypothesise about the audience, oh, maybe it's this message, maybe it's that message, maybe it's this visual theme. Maybe it's this like territory, and you test all of those things. And based on the data that you get back, you can be confident about what you should do next, whereas what we do is feed that data into things like digital out of home and TV and all that kind of stuff. So my anxiety about going that shiny object is it's still fundamentally based on creative guesswork.
Simon Peel 15:54
Yeah I get that. And it's a fair argument. So what I would say, and it's an easy argument, so I hope you'll forgive me, Tom, for taking the easy route out of this, is you should do both, right, you should do that big 48 or 96 sheet in Shoreditch. And you should do creative testing in digital and making sure that it's adapted to the right audience at the right time. Like, you need to do both. And it needs to be based on a communication strategy or a creative strategy that is, you know, has got a direction and a point that helps get the message across. So I get I know, it's an easy answer. I just don't think they are opposing, I think you need to do both. And the reason why I'm saying like, traditional media thinking that maybe that was a bit contentious, or a bit dickish of me to say analog media. But what I really mean is, you know, we neglect things that have come before us, and we dismiss them, because they're perceived to be traditional, and we need to be new. And it's like, with everything. I think, you know, with science, with art, with literature with, even with silly things like media planning, although I don't mean that rudely to anyone that does media planning. It is about learning from people that have come before you and then applying new knowledge as well. So I genuinely think it's about doing both and doing both really well. And, you know, it's contentious, and it's potentially a bit rude of me to say, you know, all this digital faff is nonsense, because I don't mean that either. I'm just being a dick. But what I mean is, let's do both really well. But let's focus on getting the strategy and the communications piece right first, so that you can create this fame for the brand. And so people do pay attention or when they are in the mindset to buy a product that happens to be in your category, that your brand comes first to mind. And hopefully you've got high propensity that the audience or people will go out and buy it. So that's what I really mean.
Tom Ollerton 17:10
I think that a really good example of traditional thinking applied really well as the... I don't know if he's listening this, but Gareth Turner is our old client at Weetabix. He did a post last year about the Muller Corner 24 sheets, and basically all it was was just the entire placement was just a Muller Yoghurt corner. So you all of which is white yogurt. Then in the corner, they had the chocolate or the raspberry or whatever. And that was it. And he would go: It's just a fantastic bit of work. Because you know, it lands a point of difference. It looks incredible. There's no copy on it, you get it straight away. It's kind of jarring. And yeah, if you do the same thing on a social platform. It's just not gonna work. Oh, that's a yoghurt. You know what I mean?
Simon Peel 19:04
Well, it might, you know, I think it depends on whether the brand is well known and remembered for that, you know, like, I remember, I think I was at MediaCom at the time and Mueller, I worked on Mueller. It was just after they'd finished doing those campaigns. So they were just moving away from out of home. Because they'd spent I think three years just bombarding the whole of the UK with these brilliant out of home posters. And then they went, they got new, like new marketing team in and they you know, wanted to change things, etc. I think it was brilliant, you know, like it was based on the observation that out of home people only take a couple of seconds to look at it and you've got to get the message across really quickly. And it was like a perfect representation of what the brand had been talking about for the last couple of years with their TV ads, which was like, you know, with a Nina Simone soundtrack, and I think it's like a... I do think it could work in social, if the brand still retains that high top of mind awareness, you know, and people understand that the product is about this, you know, lovely yoghurt on one side, and then this luxurious corner that you can put into it, I think it could work.
Tom Ollerton 20:01
So my theory for why the shiny new object syndrome gets the industry caught up, is the fact that it's got... the industry needs to keep on selling itself to itself. So you know, you talk about how brands grow and Binet and Field. And like, that's pretty solid science, right? That's marketing science. And I thought, well, here's a quote, I heard the other day, like all advertising is is to make you feel a preference to a certain brand at the point of purchase. Like that's the output of marketing and advertising so that when you decide to make a purchase that you feel more favorable about Adidas over Nike or Mueller over unbranded, whatever. So that science is so convincing. But the industry needs to keep on selling itself. And the only thing we can do that's interesting is shiny new things, right? So you can't have the front cover of campaign be, I'll just do what worked 70 years ago, it won't sell any copies or get clicks, right? Where if it's like, the metaverse is going to change everything, everyone's gonna pile into that article, because we're attracted by the new and then you've got entrepreneurs, such as myself, you know, trying to make a buck with a new thing, right. And I need to convince the industry that my thing's brilliant and exciting and it works, which it does. But I need to kind of say, Look, this is more important than the thing that worked 70 years ago, but in reality, the old stuff, and as you said it, the stuff, the psychology that drives brand preference and purchase isn't going to change. But as an industry, we have to create shiny new objects in order to drive the clicks that those individuals, titles or suppliers need in order to grow their own businesses.
Simon Peel 21:56
Yeah, I think that there's definitely something in that. There's this thing that I think is forgotten, right, which a few years ago, I guess this must have been about 2019, maybe 2018. Binet and Field did a presentation at the IPA, where they're just, they're just publishing their book "Effectiveness in context," which was the fourth one I think they did together. And I couldn't go because I was sick. But a couple of other guys from my team, at the time I was at Adidas again, and a couple of the guys from our team went. And they told me one of the things that Peter Field said, which I love, and I don't know if it's true, because I wasn't there, but basically was when branding... so they were talking about "The long short of it." And they were saying, you know, because there's that sort of generalized rule, which is an aggregated order of 60-40, obviously differs by category, country, time, year, all that sort of stuff. But one of the things that Peter Field said was like, or it might have been less, when branding is easy do activation, and when activation is easy, do branding. And I thought it was really compelling. Because it's basically, to your point, like if everyone did 60-40, or everyone did saliency, from "How brands grow," you know, always on top of mind awareness, then we'd be in the same boat, like everyone would be doing the same thing. So how do you stand out? How do you do something different? How do you create that fame because it becomes homogenous. And I think with what Peter or Les, I think it was Peter that was talking about it said is basically, you know, the competitive advantage then is to do the opposite of what people do. And then it got me thinking because that's basically something that I think, I don't think it was John Haggerty that came up with the copy line, I think it was some lady in his team. But you know when when others zig, zag, you know, and it's the same thing it's like when others are all doing this thing, go off and do the other thing that gives you a competitive advantage. I think it's true with what you do. You know and what your company does is you're not necessarily dismissing the traditional thinking of advertising or marketing. What you're saying is here is competitive advantage to add on to that if everyone else is going in this direction, come off and do this. It will help your business grow. So again, I understand where you're coming from like you have to kind of sell yourself to the industry and you have to like make yourself attractive and why you know agencies or advertisers need to buy but it comes back to that simple premise of when others are doing this thing, go off and do that because that's an opportunity for you.
Tom Ollerton 24:58
I think that is a lovely sentence with which to finish the podcast, although we could do a seven hour version, I think. But unfortunately, we have jobs to do. Simon, thank you so much. If someone wants to get in touch with you about this or anything else, where should they get in touch with you? And how would you like them to reach out to you, what makes a good outreach message to you?
Simon Peel 25:20
Well, they could write me a letter seeing as I like traditional or a postcard, but probably the best thing is LinkedIn.
Tom Ollerton 25:26
And what makes a good message to you on LinkedIn?
Simon Peel 25:30
Oh, well, they want to blow smoke up my bum. That's always nice, but anything, they just say hello. And so you know, they want to chat about something. That's, that's fine. That's brilliant.
Tom Ollerton 25:38
Excellent. Well, look, thanks so much for your time.
Simon Peel 25:42
No worries, mate. Thank you very much again, Tom. Appreciate it.
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