Episode 203 / Daniel Peach / Google / Head of Digital Acceleration Programmes, EMEA Go to Market Strategy
Podcast: Making LGBTQ a Normal Part of Advertising
As Head of Digital Acceleration Programmes, EMEA Go to Market Strategy at Google, Daniel Peach focuses on maturity and digital marketing for the brand. His Shiny New Object is pride washing and he brings us a wealth of tips on how to avoid this in advertising.
Before working at Google, Daniel has built experience across an impressive variety of industries and roles. He has worked in the financial services doing audit, in the aerospace and defense industry as a consultant, and how now discovered marketing. With a pair of fresh eyes, his top advice for all marketers is to always think that, “you are not your audience.”
This applies to his Shiny New Object, too. Pride washing represents brands either only using queer characters or catering to the queer community during Pride Month, or operating in complete contradiction to their own brand ethos when it comes to the LGBTQ community. Whether they simply don’t have representation internally to allow them to craft better marketing for the queer audience, or simply do not spend enough time targeting their advertising correctly and aligning it to their values, this type of marketing jumps out for the community.
What represents pride washing in practice? Daniel gave us the example of Disney, who have a very pro-LGBTQ outwards facing agenda and communications. However, in Florida, the company supports politicians with an anti-gay programme - in complete opposition with what they advertise.
Additionally, the gay community deals with token advertising only during Pride Month and a lack of better understanding and inclusion in everyday ads.
What’s the solution? Daniel advises making queer characters an organic part of the ad, like Etsy did years ago running an ad with a gay couple outside of Pride Month and without making it explicitly all about the LGBTQ representation.
To get it right, brands need representation in their creative process, because - as per Daniel’s top tip, they are not their audience. If your company doesn’t have enough voices from the queer community internally, you can use LGBTQ charities to build a better, more inclusive message and more natural and intuitive advertising.
Listen to more tips on this topic from Daniel here.
Transcript
The following gives you a good idea of what was said, but it’s not 100% accurate.
Daniel Peach 0:00
There were some really basic navigation and functionality issues that I wouldn't have spotted, because I'm not in that seat, I was bit too close to the design process. So I think good to get a bit of objectivity but also recognize that you're probably not the best person to grade your own homework.
Tom Ollerton 0:22
Hi, before we get to this week's podcast, I'd like to tell you that automated creative are releasing a book called How to make it in marketing Volume One, it is a collection of the best marketing career advice we've heard from over 200 episodes of the shiny new object podcast. You'll hear from some of the biggest, brightest and best names in the industry showing you telling you how to grow your career, you can reserve yourself a copy at this URL, so get your pens out, it's Bit.ly/MAKEITINMARKETING. And enjoy. It's a great read.
Tom Ollerton 1:21
Hello, and welcome to the shiny new object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton, I'm the founder of Automated Creative and this is podcast about the future of marketing. Each week, I get to interview someone senior and exciting about their vision for where it's all gonna go next. And this week is no different. I'm on a call with Daniel Peach, who is head of digital acceleration programs, EMEA, go to market strategy at Google. Daniel, for anyone who doesn't know who you are and what you do, can you give us a bit of background?
Daniel Peach 1:47
So I work at Google. I lead a bunch of sales programs that are focused on maturity and digital marketing. Before that, I was in business school at Oxford. So Oxford Said, got an MBA. Before that, a completely different industry. I was in consulting, interestingly, aerospace and defense consulting with a mix of defense contractors and then the US military. And then before that completely different industry, again, audits, where I did a lot of work on transaction. So mergers and acquisitions, bankruptcies, all the fun stuff. And I went to University of South Carolina for undergrad where I studied International Business and Accounting, and I'm from Orlando, Florida, originally.
Tom Ollerton 2:32
Right, so trick question, what unites all of those things apart from your physical form? They sound very disparate types of careers and choices. How does it all squished together?
Daniel Peach 2:41
I'd say about two to five years, I hit a point where I said, do I still like this? And in both cases, the answer was no. So I moved on. And that, that works for places, too. I'm not a huge fan of Orlando.
Tom Ollerton 2:54
So the first question I have for you is you are working for Google, and you work in a sales function, there's going to be lots of plates to spin there, lots of opportunity. So you're going to have a lot to deal with. How do you cope with overwhelm?
Daniel Peach 3:08
It's a good question. I feel I felt overwhelmed at the end of the year, in particular, I think everybody did. And I found myself falling into habits. And it wasn't until maybe January that I looked back and thought, oh, actually, that worked. So what I do is I essentially force stopped my brain. I read recently, somebody at Amazon does something similar, where they use Samba as a way to completely disengage because Samba is about using your body versus your mind. I wish I was that advanced or maybe that thoughtful. I use reality TV. To be honest. It's familiar, I think American voices and you know, I'm American, and so it's comfortable. And I don't really have to think so it forces my mind to stop processing. But I'm also not engaged with content. And sometimes I don't even watch the TV. There's something about the noise, maybe a version of white noise that works. And occasionally I do some grunt work. So slight updates, data analysis. Those are the kinds of things that I think are almost like comfort food for me because I've done them for so many years that I can do them without really thinking that much so that's what's helped in the past few months. I think it helped reset.
Tom Ollerton 4:25
So if your boss is listening to this, are you admitting that you watch reality TV during the day when you get a bit stressed?
Daniel Peach 4:30
My boss actually watches reality TV so I'm in good company.
Tom Ollerton 4:35
Brilliant, sanctioned use of reality TV.
Tom Ollerton 4:44
And yes, Samba, that's the first mention of it on this podcast, I'm fairly confident. So what is your top marketing tip? What's that golden nugget of marketing advice that you find yourself sharing most often?
Daniel Peach 4:56
Yeah, I came to marketing late, you know audit and consulting are quite different beasts. And so I had to do a bit of learning. And I think the best one was you are not your audience, which really resonated for somebody that hadn't really thought about the audience much before. But I think there's a through line across industries. So for instance, if you are presenting to senior leadership, your audience is not you, you have to boil down details and make it really actionable and kind of punchy. Whereas if you're building a product or a service for somebody, you very often are not the user of that product or service. So one example: I helped build a tool called grow my store, just something on Google, basically scrapes websites, and provides recommendations. And I realized when we were doing user experience testing, that there were some really basic navigation and functionality, issues that I wouldn't have spotted, because I'm not in that seat, I was a bit too close to the design process. So I think good to get a bit of objectivity, but also recognize that you're probably not the best person to grade your own homework.
Tom Ollerton 6:08
So how do you make that possible? It's advice that we've had some similar versions that are on the podcast, and it makes total sense, and there's no marketer out there, it's gonna be like, No, you should just completely ignore your audience like it doesn't really need explaining. But why does it happen so infrequently? What tools and techniques do you suggest that people could use to make sure that the audience is front and center?
Daniel Peach 6:34
I think I tend to socialize ideas a lot before I actually start working on them. So we build in it's kind of a common thing at Google, but also elsewhere, of building in two to three weeks of just refining an idea. And I tend to go to somebody that has zero touch with it, or very low touch to just get a basically rip to shreds in a good way. I do this personally, by the way, too. So I realized my closest friends work in completely different industries. And the only thing we have in common is that we're friends. And in some cases, we went to business school together. But I think it's good if there's a bit of groupthink that tends to happen when you are working with the same people over time. So it's something about curating your network in a way that's more balanced. And, and maybe has some objectivity. So you go to people infrequently, and maybe vary the people that you go to every time
Tom Ollerton 7:34
This episode of the shiny new object podcast is brought to you in partnership with MADfest. whether it's live in London or streamed online to the global marketing community, you can always expect the distinctive and daring blend of fast paced content startup innovation pitches and unconventional entertainment from MADfest events, you'll find me causing trouble on stage recording live versions of this podcast and sharing a beer with the nicest and most influential people in marketing, check it out at www.madfestlondon.com.
Tom Ollerton 8:10
So we're going to move on now to your shiny new object, which is pride washing in marketing. So I think that's fairly self evident what that is, but what does pride washing and marketing mean to you? And why is it your shiny new object?
Unknown Speaker 8:25
Yeah, pride washing is in... sadly, it's not new. But I think it's, it's so pervasive that it's, you know, something that's top of mind for the LGBTQ community. And that is me personally, I always feel a bit exploited in marketing, that's not good. So you see a lot of examples during pride month, there's this sort of performative marketing where companies will post a pride themed logo, and it doesn't harm us. It also doesn't help us to be honest, it's, it's just sort of its social media activism. But there are actual advertisements for products or partnerships that companies will run during pride month, especially. And that's usually sometime around June. That feels like we are a demo, and they are lowering the quality of advertising to try to, you know, get what's called, I think, the pink dollar, which also is a bit of a strange term, but trying to market directly to the LGBT community. It's kind of subpar. And that's what that's what bothers me personally about it.
Tom Ollerton 9:34
Give me some examples.
Daniel Peach 9:35
Sure. So Disney came up recently, and Disney is one where you would think, you know, very kind of positive brand image. You know, they have gay days with some of their theme parks, which is, you know, full takeover of the theme park by the gay community or lesbian community. And so they outwardly catered to the LGBT community, in advertising and in services. But then they turned around and in Florida, my home state, they supported politicians that voted for anti LGBT legislation, this Don't say gay bill. And it was the the disparity between what they were saying in marketing channels and what they were doing and lobbying that felt like they were they were sending mixed messages and actively harming us while also trying to make money off of us. Lots of other ads examples too. I can go through if that's useful.
Tom Ollerton 10:35
Yeah, it's really good to help think about some specific examples. Any from the UK?
Daniel Peach 10:40
Yeah. So interestingly, on product side, a really bad example, Marks and Spencer, during pride month, put together a what's called an LG BT sandwich. And by that they mean lettuce, guacamole, bacon and tomato. Just really, really...
Tom Ollerton 11:02
Sorry. That's yeah... How did that go down?
Daniel Peach 11:07
Not well, as you can imagine. They advertised it, and they were universally panned and probably dragged on Twitter.
Tom Ollerton 11:13
Okay, so that so yeah, so you've talked like big picture, politics and then product. And you're talking about badging. Can you show me another example of what you think really represents the worst in this pride washing?
Daniel Peach 11:26
Oh, yeah. So Deutsche Bahn, which is the train line, national train line of Germany, or the company, that's maybe the equivalent of liner or something in the UK, they put together an ad, which featured conductors walking down the aisle in high heels... could be good. But also, with a kind of in a, with a bit of levity, and almost making fun of that person. There was, there was queer trauma involved, where everybody was crying and sad. And then there were a lot of rainbow logos. So all of these things just mix together to almost make fun of the LGBT community in a moment where we were meant to be celebrating. And another thing is everybody there was white, which is a common issue in the advertising in general is a lack of representation and intersectionality. So very one note.
Tom Ollerton 12:21
So who gets it right?
Daniel Peach 12:22
Yeah, we've had a few good example, actually quite a few good examples recently. Etsy the company, you know, that sells kind of crafts and homeware online, they put together this ad a few years ago, I don't even think it was during pride month, to be honest, which is also a good thing. It was a black gay couple going home to one of the couple's families. And the campaign was called gifts like you mean it. And it was all about meeting the family and getting a gift from that family to show that they were, that that partner was welcome in the home. It felt very... it was a great commercial in general, I loved it. But equally, it was subtle. It wasn't... it didn't feel too directive. And there was a narrative that made sense for the company. So it wasn't something that was too disjointed with the overall campaign theme or the message that the company was trying to push through.
Tom Ollerton 13:18
You said something that stuck out there that it didn't run during pride month. So how important is that?
Unknown Speaker 13:25
Yeah, I mean, I think from I mean, just being realistic from a marketing planning point of view, there are key moments... tentpole moments in every year, and pride is one of them. Obviously, you know, Christmas is another one that comes up frequently, Easter, a few of these things. So Pride Month in the UK is kind of June July, I think that is a fair time if companies want to advertise. But it's nice. And we in the queer community recognize when, for instance, queer characters in advertisements, or products that are more geared toward community roll out outside of that period, we definitely take notice that it's it's a sign of goodwill, I'd say.
Tom Ollerton 14:05
You've given us some interesting examples of where it's gone wrong. And I assume there's good intentions behind those things. And maybe I'm too positive of a guy, but I'm sure there were good people involved in that trying to do the right thing, but clearly gone horribly wrong. So if you could advise any business moving forward on how to get it right, what would be your kind of top three, top five, do this don't do this bit of advice?
Daniel Peach 14:32
Yeah, I think you're right. It is always well intentioned. Part of the challenge, I think, is that sometimes marketing teams may not have, you know, fair representation from the LGBT community on their team. So if that's the case, I think it's always good to involve queer people in the process of design or ideation. That could be charities, if there's nobody in house or if we feel kind... of going back to the advice you are not your audience. If you want to understand your audience, you know, making sure that if the LGBTQ community is part of the audience, or is the audience, you, you solicit them on the front end. Also good, as we said, to lead it outside of Pride Month of you can, we do appreciate it across the board. But you know, it's always nice to see it sometimes, sometimes out of summer. The biggest thing in terms of content is making sure that, you know, advertisers are highlighting queer joy and not just queer trauma. So what I mean by that is, very often in advertising, two characters that have been torn apart, you know, they maybe were in a relationship, one got married, you know, it's two lesbians, one got married to a man in the case of a Renault ad from a few years ago, and they had to go through struggle and strife. And then they finally got together in the last five seconds, for the close of the advertisement. We had a focus group recently with some Gen Z dads who were overwhelmingly people of color and trans non binary and gender diverse. And what they said was, what was the missing element was the queer joy, the excitement that we feel being, you know, LGBT part of the LGBTQ plus community. So I think more of that is always helpful. And maybe one last tip is make sure if you are going to advertise that your house is clean. So you're not doing you know, trying to market to the LGBT community on one side, while also doing things that are undermining our civil rights on the other side.
Tom Ollerton 16:35
I think you should put that on a poster somewhere, that's great, those four tips. So where's this going? Is there going to be a time when it's not even necessary? Where we see Pride Month in years to come whether where there is no advertising focused on the community, or is this something that should always be focused on by brands, and help change the narrative for the betterment of society?
Daniel Peach 17:05
It's a good question. I mean, the LGBT market I mean, who knows, really, but the startups, 6 billion pounds of purchasing power in the UK. So it's a big, big community and a big market. I wouldn't... I don't know if advertising will strictly go away. But I think what we would love in the long term is seeing, you know, queer people, you know, embedded in, in general advertising that runs throughout the year, in a way that feels intuitive and natural. A lot of brands have been doing that. You see, you see maybe a gay couple in their child's clothing advertisement, or you see, you might see somebody that's trans, featured in a wider campaign. Really, I think more native advertising is kind of what we're looking for in the long term. But pride is a good way to test messages and just learn over time of what works and what doesn't for your company.
Tom Ollerton 17:59
So I'd like to understand a bit more about how you do intuitive and natural correctly, because you had like four very distinct things that will be very easy, not easy, but they're unequivocal, really, whereas intuitive and natural. That's pretty vague. So can you help the audience understand what you mean by that, and how that can be achieved?
Daniel Peach 18:17
Sure, we use another example. So Oreo, put together a commercial, and I think it was as a global commercial, outside of Pride Month. But they did work with an LGBT Q charity to help to kind of put the ad together, it told the story of a family coming together, and wanting to enjoy Oreos, but it did it in a way where it was very clear that there were two, you know, gay daughters, as part of the family. And the father kind of stepped forward and, and in a way subtly, you know, showed pride for his daughter. This was an advertisement that would have worked in any capacity, not just during pride month, but you could put it on in October, and it would equally have the same value. It was an advertisement that they would have run in general, but it just happened to have queer characters. And I think that kind of embedding queer characters in those narrative storylines, in in advertisements is what's I think helpful in the long term. So just making it a normal part of of putting your ads together versus trying to create something specific for the LGBT community that may only run, you know, a few times during the month.
Tom Ollerton 19:32
So what are you expecting to see this year from advertisers in this space to think it's gonna get a bit better? Is it going to slip a bit? What are your fears and hopes for the summer?
Daniel Peach 19:43
I think we're trying to be a bit more proactive about guiding what best practices look like in advertising to the queer community. So YouTube is working with Albert Kennedy Trust, which is a charity in the UK, and an agency called Distillery on putting together basically brand guidelines. So both across advertising, this is main focus, there is video ads, but equally, you know, product ideation, you know, sponsorships, and the idea is really guiding the brands that we work with on a daily basis to, to do this in a way we would say is maybe best practice. And this is going back to that focus group of Gen Zs, who were over being a predominantly, you know, marginalized groups, those are the audience that we listened to, for those to curate those best practices. So, you know, over time, we want to influence brands to think about this in a way that, you know, feels more, I don't know, see, going back to more natural or something, but, but I think the idea is, it's probably a slow change. But the more people can be thoughtful about how they're putting together advertising for the career community, the better. And it's probably a slow change, but something that we want to tell everyone yet, you know, improve over time.
Tom Ollerton 21:03
And unfortunately, we're gonna have to leave it there. So if someone wants to get in touch with you to talk about your day to day or pride washing and how not to do it, where would you like them to get in touch with you? And what makes a great outreach message to you?
Daniel Peach 21:18
I'd say LinkedIn, and I always appreciate great copy. But honestly, just feel free to reach out and say, I heard you on the podcast, and I will, I guarantee you, I will answer, very happy to.
Tom Ollerton 21:29
Well, thank you for your time as we came into this subject, I was like, I do not know as much about this as I should. But you've made what is a very emotive and important subject really simple to take action with as an agency supplier or a brand. So I really appreciate you sharing your time on that, Daniel.
Daniel Peach 21:45
My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
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