Episode 74 / Katherine Freeley / Colgate-Palmolive / Global Marketing, IMC Associate Director
Interviewed in the latest instalment of the Shiny New Object Podcast by Automated Creative’s Tom Ollerton is Katherine Freeley, Global Marketing, IMC Associate Director at Colgate-Palmolive. Here are five things Ollerton found out as a result of the conversation
To prepare for an AI-led world, be more human
My conversation with Freeley started and finished on the same theme - humanity and our defining qualities. A big believer in AI as the future of marketing, Freeley says that in order to survive, we must embrace our distinctive attributes as people that machines can’t replicate, like compassion and empathy. She recommends the decade-old book Love is the Killer App - a short read that highlights the importance of connections, and how to stand out in a cluttered environment. Despite being old (in marketing terms), these lessons stand truer than ever today.
Be agile, not perfect
Freeley believes that perfect can be the enemy of good - in pursuit of perfection, we can end up getting stuck in a rut, whether that’s with products or campaigns. She says that for her, agility is more important, that marketers need to follow the 80:20 rule and allow for the fact that bosses or even consumers are going to have feedback that will allow us to optimise as we go. I asked her when you know you’ve done enough - she says it’s when the story hits on all the main objectives that you need to deliver. Then prepare to accept constructive criticism; don’t become too in love with your idea that you won’t then be flexible enough to change it.
Embrace the creative power of conflict
The most valuable thing Freeley has ever paid for with her own money is a bit of a whopper - a PhD - a doctorate of management. While pricey, she says it’s been of huge value in her career. Her dissertation looked at conflict management and how to harness power of conflict and she’s learned how to use this in the workplace. Whether that’s empowering people to express their opinions, creating an open working environment or making sure there’s healthy debate - she believes that different points of view is what fuels great creativity.
Machines are amazing - but we have emotional intelligence
Freeley believes that most people would be surprised at how good AI currently is. Whether it’s creative, or targeting - machines can often be better at many of the tasks that people in agencies are currently picking up. But there’s still a role for people to work alongside AI, discovering the human truths that we need to make an impact, using the emotion-driven knowledge that is unique to us. Harnessing this sense of emotional intelligence is something we have to build on more and more as we go into a world led by technology.
If you want to go one level deeper on this you can check out Find Courses’ content on emotional intelligence may be useful
Find your creative power hour
An interesting tip for those who struggle to focus - Freeley said that over the last couple of years, she changed her commute so she could travel with her daughter, who started a new school. As an unintended by-product of this, she’s now in the office at 8am instead of 9am, and she’s found that this hour is often her most productive and focused time of the day. She concedes that this isn’t the case for everyone - some people may favour working late than early - but it’s worth playing around with your daily schedule to see if you can find that hidden hour of the day when you’re at your best.
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Transcription of Podcast
Here is a transcription of the podcast made by an AI that we are experimenting with. It’s not completely accurate so don’t take it as gospel.
Tom Ollerton 1:09
My name is Tom Ollerton. I'm the founder of automated creative, and this podcast is about the future of marketing. Every week or so I have the pleasure and the privilege of interviewing one of our industry's leaders, and this week, I'm excited to say is no different. I'm on a call with Katherine freely who is global marketing, IMC associate director at Colgate Palmolive. Katherine, for those who are listening to this podcast, I don't know who you are, or what you do. Can you give a bit of an introduction to yourself?
Katherine Freeley 1:44
Yeah, sure. Thank you, Tom. So as Tom said, my name is Katherine Freeleyy, and I have been with Colgate palmolive now for 12 years in my role of global marketing, but previously to call good had an over 10 year career in planning strategy and buying with all the advertising agencies like WPP. So one can say that media and marketing has been my life professional life so far. And, you know, I really I'm very passionate about media world and marketing world and the new shiny objects in our marketing world. So thank you, Tom, for having me. here to speak at your podcast.
Tom Ollerton 2:36
No, no, thank you. Brilliant. Okay, that was an impressive career. I look forward to digging into that a bit later. But first of all, we're going to get to know you a little bit. So a couple quick questions. Are you a marketing book person? Do you read marketing books?
Katherine Freeley 2:55
so you know, I've loved a lot of marketing books, but I just read the sky. This little book called Love is a killer app by Tim Sanders. And he was a former Yahoo executive. And it's like one of those books that I found in like our, you know, closet that everybody leaves the books in the office. And I picked up a book and I said, Well, you know, what a great book that is. And it was a time New York Times bestseller back in like 2003. But what I loved about this book is like it talked about human relevance and not human but brand relevance and connections and distinctive attributes and return on attention. And I was saying to my and compassion and empathy and being human. And you know, I really liked this about the book because it's a short movie. But really, it's something that allows you to truly understand And how marketing those days should be done. And and can be done to be a successful brand in 2020 and beyond. So I really love that book. And I truly recommend that to everybody. And what would you say is the the two or three key insights that you've taken from that, but we use on a regular basis? Yeah, so especially you know that right now, it's all about the connections that you make with your customers and consumers and about just being different, right? The distinctive attributes like how in the clutter environment, How are you different as a brand? How are you talking and connecting with with with your consumers in a different way, and also about the storytelling that we're now all about storytelling at Colgate and that's what we want to recreate. To be. So there are just like those few tidbits in that book that, you know, it was written almost more than 10 years ago. And they're so relevant right now for how we approach marketing.
Tom Ollerton 5:19
So this some great advice there, but what is the bad recommendations that you hear in the industry? What advice makes you roll your eyes and think, Oh, my life? What? Tell me some of those kind of things to avoid?
Katherine Freeley 5:34
Yes, I have a few of those since I've been in the industry for you know, over two decades. And so I think that that like legally, but I think the better conditions are, it's like when we approach a project and somebody at the project is striving for perfection, I'm gonna really want to get to all the use cases and all The, you know, users and and and it takes them months. And I just say, No, I really, we really need to be more agile those days. And you know, the 8020 rule if you get to an 80, and you actually get that thing going for people to actually use it and tested and provide your feedback, like, to me that is so much more important those days than taking like seven to eight months and come up with this perfect situation. And then or recommendation and then be a bit surprised that people might critique it or provide feedback and you know, it isn't as perfect as one would think it is and it takes a really long time to show it to either the users or you know, even even your bosses. So I'm worried about, you know, Tom those days about like agility and like not getting it all perfect, but really more optimising As as you go, and I think that this is a really a better approach towards, you know, marketing and campaign and the projects that we do. And, you know, as an all CPG, we obviously, we're all about perfection. And it did take us like a year to come up with a campaign. And I think that that mindset change those days about trying to get things you know, faster, more like a startup is really something I embraced.
Tom Ollerton 7:28
So how do you know when you've done enough? I mean, you say at 20, okay, I buy that. And I love the idea of not being perfect and just getting it out there. But there is there's a gap right between not having done enough and having done just enough to get it in front of the audience of your boss or whoever. So do you have any tools or techniques or methods or hunches for when something is good enough to go?
Katherine Freeley 7:55
Yes, it's a bit. You know, I think it's practice next good predictor of when it's enough to, you know, start presenting to people. But I think that, you know, if you have like a full story sort of like full story, not perfect story, but if it sort of hits on all the main objective that you're supposed to deliver, then even if it's not, as I said, perfect, I think that you're good to go to start showing it to other people. And or whether it's bosses or users to get their feedback, because it only can become more complete. When you get, you know, actual points of views of either people that will sell it up, or people that will use it right. So you don't want to go too far and become too like, too in love with your idea. And then don't want to not be flexible enough to change it. But I think that it's just like, you know, you really have to specify your main objective And if you had those, I would say that's like your good guide for when it's good enough.
Tom Ollerton 9:06
And so how do you deal with people who are perfectionists? How do you talk people out of being a perfectionist? How have you managed to change someone's mind to previously just wanted to get it perfect?
Katherine Freeley 9:18
Yeah. So that's not easy, because I think a perfectionist is the person that you either are or you are not right. So a perfectionist will always try to come back to try to be perfect. I think as as a leader of a project, you just have to really draw the line at some point and, and you know, and just just start presenting it. So you can take all that feedback and all the nodes up to a point. And at some point, you just have to make an executive decision that this this this is good enough to either test or start presenting. it up.
Tom Ollerton 10:01
So moving away from some great advice, though, in terms of attitude and approach, let's look at actual stuff. What's the most? What's the most useful thing that you've bought with your own money that you rely on for work?
Katherine Freeley 10:16
Well, it's something very expensive, Tom. So I invested I paid for my own doctorate. So I got a doctor of management degree with the University of Maryland. And, you know, I really, it really did help me professionally. I don't use it like so I wanted to become a professor, but I didn't become a professor. I still stayed in marketing, working for Colgate. But, you know, my dissertation and just my work of study really did help me in my professional work. So, you know, my dissertation was on conflict management and and about how to harness the constraint The power of conflict. And to be completely frank with you, I do use it at work all the time. And it really has helped me tremendously. So even though it was really expensive and really painful, and I do you know, when I reflect back, I really do find that as the most useful thing.
Tom Ollerton 11:23
We're gonna have to go deep into conflict management, and how what did you say company management and how to use it creatively or effectively. So
Katherine Freeley 11:33
harnessing the power of constructive conflict management. That was that was something that was my dissertation topic. Tom Ollerton 11:41 But so as someone listening to this podcast is, I can hear them saying, I want to hear more about this the two what are the what are the three things to take away from using conflict management in a in a productive way? I think that the common belief is that conflict management is something very bad and destructive. And really having done all the research conflict can be actually very constructive power. You know, so don't be afraid of conflict, but you know, manage it openly have a lot of points of use on the table being able to be expressed don't have people be afraid of expressing their opinions. Right. And, and, you know, just having an open work environment is really all the findings that I've had through doing my dissertation, but especially through expressing points of view and different points of view is that's what really fuels creativity. So, that is that creative, creative power of conflict. Having everybody agree, will not create, you know, will not give you a great creativity. So I think that those are the three few takeaways from my entire dissertation.
Tom Ollerton 13:04
So, in your career, what have you become better at saying no to?
Katherine Freeley 13:12
That's a good question. Um, well, you know, I think that when you're early in your career, it's very difficult to just say no, just want to be like a yes, person, Please, everybody. But when you become a bit of a more seasoned professional, you know, I think that what you've learned that no, sometimes it's a good answer as well. There's like a yes. And I think that I would have become much better at is saying no to projects that like, have no added value to the entire process or a bigger project that you manage, that are just projects that like your boss wants you to do or somebody else wants you to do just for no reason. And I think that when I see those projects, those days I'm much better of like You know, and you're not always can say no to your boss, right? That's a tricky situation. But I think I'm better at showing the case, why I should not spend five days five weeks on the project that might never see a light of a day or it's really not useful for anybody. Or take shortcuts to that project if I cannot say no to it, but I become better at identifying and building my case studies on why I should not be a lot of time on those projects, for example.
Tom Ollerton 14:32
So how do you say no to the things that you want to do? Because there's one thing your boss going, can you go and do this project for five weeks and you're like, ah, and you can argue the point using the case studies, which I think is a an interesting way. But what I suffer from is I see something like a shiny object, for example, and I go, oh my god, I want to do that thing. And I'll get dragged into a drag myself into it and some sometimes I get caught up with the exciting things as opposed to The right thing. So do you suffer from that?
Katherine Freeley 15:07
I'm quite a passionate person. And I've had a passion for marketing for many years. So I get really excited about things, and then I put my energy into something. And that's something might not be exactly, you know, what is my objective from my work. But, you know, I think at the end of the day is prior to like, you have to prioritise and you have to drive yourself from something that you know you want to do, but you know that that's not that's not exactly your objective. So I think it's just a little bit of self discipline and looking back, really what you're supposed to achieve is, you know, it's not nice, like my son wants to watch TV or play video games, and I have to tell him, No, and he's not happy with me. But at the end of the day, you know, it's just the same sort of approach they have to self it's like, I know you want to do that because that's fun.
Tom Ollerton 16:10
I love that you describe your internal mind as a young teenager playing computer games, there's a really interesting way of describing it, and it makes total sense.
Katherine Freeley 16:25
So I just thought that you know, like when kids are teenagers love it, they really love it. I think it's why I was trying to really describe the passion approach to something and trying to take yourself away from it.
Tom Ollerton 16:39
So what new belief or behaviours Have you taken on board in the last few years that have had a big impact on your work life?
Katherine Freeley 16:51
Yeah, that's a good question. So this is sort of, I didn't take it on voluntarily, but my daughter started to a new school and middle school in Manhattan, and you know, I started to commute with her like earlier. So I have gained I started to come into the office at 8am versus 9am. And I have found that this hour between eight and nine when everybody else gets into the office is like the best, the most creative hour of my day, when you know if I want to do a presentation or if I want to think conceptually or I really want to do a concept map of something that's like my best time of my day or prepare for a presentation, you know, something that's really difficult to read. So that to me like that one hour in the morning and you know, everybody is different. Some people loved that hour to be maybe 11:12pm. I like it eight to 9am but finding that extra hour in your day when you most created for open to new ideas. I think it's something that you know, I would say have really helped past few years.
Tom Ollerton 18:01
So can I just jump back to something you said, you work on a concept map? So it's not the phrase you use. What's, what's that?
Katherine Freeley 18:11
The concept map is especially helpful. I think this is something that I picked up during my dissertation, when we have a more of an abstract idea or a concept, right, and especially as Greg was like strategy development, but you don't exactly know what it is you just start drawing boxes connected with arrows and, and you just create a concept map. And of course, you can change it many, many, many times. It's like a conceptual model of a more abstract construct, but sometimes very helpful to bring it down to people that are your managers or your bosses or even people you manage. If you want to break it down into something that's a little bit more conceptual that they might not be able to rub their hands on. heads around it as of yet.
Tom Ollerton 19:03
So we're kind of getting up to the halfway point now. So thanks for giving us that insight into how you do what you do. But we're going to talk about your shiny object, which is humanity in an AI world. And when you told me this when we spoke the other week, I was like, I can't wait to talk about this. I think I know what you mean. But could you explain to the audience what you see humanity in an AI world is being held up to understand it?
Katherine Freeley 19:41
in my opinion, an extremely powerful force that is entering not only marketing, but marketing as well but our world altogether together, and they think that you know, the problem and the struggle that Monitor will have AI is extremely smart. And it probably can do a lot of things better than humans can. So an even with functions like there are functions that I would have never thought that AI can actually do. But like creative development, actually can do it very well. So, when I was thinking about the shiny object to me, I'm thinking about what what does the humanity how the humanity can actually, you know, carve out their own point of difference against the artificial artificial intelligence, right? And I truly think that the way that the humanity will survive and can survive in the future is, you know, something that bought the book that I recommended earlier, love is killer app talks about and really what it is is, you know, that was that it's like Knowledge, but knowledge is more from the heart and emotions driven knowledge. And human truth is something that will differentiate us from artificial intelligence. Because artificial intelligence can have a lot of knowledge. That's a human knowledge is a different type of knowledge. Also networks, but more of like developing human relationships and networks is something that can, you know, differentiate us from AI because it's also, you know, I, I feel that artificial intelligence can be great, you know, at networks. And then I think that last, that killer app that artificial intelligence will not have for a foreseeable future is the compassion and empathy, very deep human emotions, right that, that we have, and this is actually something that I think we should build on. Learn more As we go into this world of technologies, artificial intelligence, high level computing, you know, our brains are great computers, but they cannot be compared with, you know, artificial intelligence. But what is better? Ai? What artificial intelligence does not have is that compassion, that empathy that you know, touch, that eye movement, something that we humans can do, which AI cannot do? And I think that that's what we should really concentrate on this humans discovering those all truths that at some point, we're a little bit lost in the business world, because in the business world, you're supposed to be all about income, you know, intelligence, all about the numbers all about, you know, what a great attribute your product had. Right? Why is it valuable? Powerful Why does it clean teeth so much better than my competitors brands was all about numbers, products benefits, as right now even asked, you know, Colgate, we look at how do we do marketing by impactful storytelling connected connecting with consumers to the human truth? How do you find those insights that actually differentiates you from your competitors? How do you become a brand? That extra points of difference, right? So, um, you know, I think that that's what Finally, artificial intelligence world meet Is that true human connections that we only the humans can do and tying it back to marketing, you know, we can actually put them in the very interesting storytelling and connecting with our consumers that way, versus trying to go crunch numbers, look at the research. Just look at, you know quants. Even when I was doing my dissertation, you know, I always I always looked into qualitative research. And I didn't discount that I actually liked it a lot because to me there was discovering more truth, the qualitative research methodologies versus crunching numbers and saying that that number grows at all because it came out of some kind of a great model that I was able to construct. So, you know, I think, Tom that to me, that to me, the humanity in the AI driven world is that's what it's all about. It goes back to our main traits as humans that differentiate us from machines.
Tom Ollerton 24:49
So many things that I want to get into. So right at the start, you said that the listeners of this podcast would be surprised by what he said. bluffing in terms of creative development. Can you give us some illustration of that?
Katherine Freeley 25:07
Yeah. So, you know, you always found that machines cannot create, do creative, right but but they can and they can probably do as good creative as the all the agencies that we employ. And a lot of the creative directors that we find because at the end of the day, you know, they can especially create those, those those those those either ads or online content that is very much like conversion driven, right? If you if you tell the AI that you wanna pet, a couple of objectives that you have, that day, you can create a bullet grid algorithm, right, that will create those those those ads, those online banners, those online videos. You know, I think and I think that that's, that's what a surprising factor to me is of, of AI also be able to look at target audiences and differentiate between different target audiences. And again, you know, create those. Those ads are those banners and online videos based on those audiences that you would basically describe to the artificial intelligence. So, I think that, you know, those are some kind of new things or are surprising things to me that I, when I started to think about it is that the AI can be actually great at creating those, those odds that we strive for, especially in the digital era, right, where we want to have multiple, multiple pieces of content or multiple pieces of creative content that would be targeting completely different target audience. I think that that's, you know, once you identify To find some of those human tropes by humans that I still think is has to be done by humans, you can then feed that in the grid algorithm algorithm that AI that they can then then can really create great creators, but based on those insights,
Tom Ollerton 27:19
so let's focus a little more on the the interaction between the human and the machine. I think what you've described, there is creative production, you know, different ads for different people at different times on different platforms, different audiences, but you said that the human truth or the humanity needs to come from a human being is do you think that will always be the case? Have you seen any technologies or processes that have enabled machines to push in to a more empathetic area
Katherine Freeley 27:54
um, I have not seen that as of yet. But I when I was Thinking about this podcast. Tom, I wanted to say that one of the things that humans are better at that machines is like the nonverbal communication. And then I have realised that that's not exactly true. Because I just recently went to the spy Museum, Park City, and you know, they have this test on how good of a spy you are. And actually the machine reads all your non verbal clues, right? And they tell you how many times you've lied or, you know, you've answered something, you know, in an actual format or, and, you know, there that that that machine that computer was quite great. And it did it all based on the nonverbal clues. So, you know, so how I went or I smiled or I made a face right or I twitched. So then I started to saying, oh, my goodness, you know, machines are very close to actually read the MLC nonverbal communication right that we always said really differentiates the humans from the machines. What I don't know if the machines can do yet and I have not seen this as of yet is truly have empathy or the true deep compassion towards other people. There's perhaps you know some very basics or basic directives that an AI or a machine can be given like, for example, if if if the machine of the computer system or the crying the answer can be you know, more empathetic, that tone of voice right like all those bots that we get phone calls from, I mean, they became quite humanoid. So, so, there is a level I think of clues that a machine can be given. Become a little bit more empathetic. But I think that the the real deep compassion and empathy that I don't see machines being able to have
Tom Ollerton 30:14
Do you think machines need to be empathetic or just appear to be empathetic?
Katherine Freeley 30:20
I think machines cannot be truly empathetic. I think the difference is the machines will appear to be empathetic. I think that's the true difference between the machine and the manatee.
Tom Ollerton 30:36
So, once again, we were running out of time, which is really annoying. But what I'm curious to know is that someone is listening to this podcast who works for a brands or a number of brands and they're thinking, Okay, there's humanity today, I will do something it's necessary and that's our humanity is our role in a world where machines can do all kinds of different things. So how do we how do we start being good at that? What are the steps that we can take to levelling up our humanity in a marketing context that doesn't very bad sentence? But like, what are the skills? What are the skills we need to develop in the next five years to make sure that we are best place to work alongside the brilliant machines that you described?
Katherine Freeley 31:28
don't just rely on numbers all the time research, quantitative research, but really look to yourself or the human, you know, troops, right? The true emotions that you have, and how do you actually as a human being connect with other people. And I think that if we as a humanity will cultivate our human side that will actually enable us to work bread, better education. stewards and coexist with dabbe artificial intelligence computers and machines as we will have to indexed by the ability truly developing, you know those skills as humans, that will then help us to connect with our consumers better to create better stories to connect with our consumers better, to better steward our brands to have a point of difference, you know, in this world where everybody's you know, fighting for attention, I think that if we concentrate on those basic human truth what makes us actually human is will become better marketers will become better brand stewards, you know, and we will, I think know how to work with AI in a, you know, more in a more partner like basis.
Tom Ollerton 32:56
So, how do you think we should measure this because It working in the field that my business does. We use this kind of technology to, to make ads this podcast not about my business. But it the problems that that we come up against a lot is that you're looking to understand an audience and you're looking to empathise with an audience by working at this huge speed and scale with these types of technologies. But fundamentally, the, the measures for understanding the audience are so coarse, so click through rate, cost per click, CPA. And now, how do you how do you see the industry crossing the gap between what you're talking about which is being more empathetic to honing our human skills to work alongside computers, and yet, you have these machines that can only really report back on the metrics that Google provide or Facebook provide or your email service provider. provide us provides which are costs and an emotional.
Katherine Freeley 34:04
Yeah. So I mean, the measurement world is far away from the perfect read a thing at the end of the day is connecting all those imperfect measures to your business results. So if this is a creative that was done by AI and drives your business, I think at the end of the day is a good creative if that was a creative that was done by letter A, your agency full of human beings, and that creative did not drive your business. So whatever your business metric is, is it sales? Is it net sales is that brand impact is brand recall, right? We all have different measures. But at the end of the day, it is sales. If we don't grow as businesses now we talked I'm talking completely business like if we don't grow, our sales grow, grow our market share, then we don't we don't do Our job properly is I didn't at the end of the day, it's something that can be connected at a very, at a higher level. And a very practical level, you know, is this, you know, this is my business growth, make metrics, you know, is this creative driving it or not driving it. And if it's driving, then whether it's AI or human creative, you know that that is a good creative, that's the creative, I want to create more off, versus, you know, the one that's not driving, it's just something that wasn't good for me and for my growth as a brand. So I think at the end of the day, you know, the measurement is extremely imperfect in our advertising world. But I think that I just would like to level set the measurement for everything. advertising world has never been perfect, right. So with the artificial intelligence or computing, we're getting to a bit of a better indication of what works and what doesn't, but You know, sometimes they're still saying that ugly Viz world awards of, you know, 50% of advertising money is wasted, which we just don't know which one still sort of stunt group, whether we have the computers or not. So, you know, I think that we have to as advertisers and marketers, just describe your business objectives the right way and try to see if we can somehow connect this to how our creative is driving those those objectives.
Tom Ollerton 36:33
Katherine, we're gonna have to leave it there. annoyingly. So, so many more questions I have for you, but maybe another time. So maybe if anyone who's listening to this podcast wants to get in touch with you, how would you like to do that?
Katherine Freeley 36:50
I think the best is to probably use my email, which is freely like my last name k like the initial of my friends. may have my first name@gmail.com
Tom Ollerton 37:04
fantastic and if someone was going to write to you on your email, what would make a brilliant email that you'd reply to?
Katherine Freeley 37:15
I don't discriminate, I think from people that would have questions to me. I would probably reply to most of the emails so so please send me send me an email if you're interested in anything I was talking about.
Tom Ollerton 37:31
Katherine, thank you so much. That was a real treat.
Katherine Freeley 37:40 Thank you, Tom.
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