Episode 2 - Augmented Reality / Amy Kean / Head of Strategic Innovation / Starcom
Listed as one of the most influential and innovative people in UK digital media by City AM, BIMA, the Drum and Marketing Magazine. Amy joins Tom to discuss her shiny new object, Augmented Reality.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, ar, work, innovation, augmented reality, book, brand, shiny new object, future, industry, sell, phone, chimp, business, buy, charlotte tilbury, chimp paradox, called, face, money
SPEAKERS
Amy Kean, Tom Ollerton
Tom Ollerton 00:00
Hello, and welcome to the Shiny New Object Podcast. This is a podcast about marketing innovation. What we do is look at the latest marketing technology and try and make sense of it for agencies and their brands. And I interview some of the most interesting people in the business about what their favorite shiny new object is, how it works, what it's about and what it's going to be in the future and how you can actually practically apply it. And in this episode, I am interviewing Amy Kean, who is the Global Head of Strategic Innovation at Starcom, as well as being an author of kids books, which we'll get onto, we'll talk about quite surreal things like her pet chimp, Margaret, will get onto food banks will get rudely interrupted by a fire alarm. I will cover Pokemon Go, apps that make you work out who's single in the room, and who is rich, it's all about the beauty industry and farmer. And you might have guessed it that Amy's Shiny New Object is in fact, Augmented Reality. So, that's what we're going to get into. But before we do that, I just want to say thanks to the guys, my hosts at Platform 360 who are giving me the space and time to record this podcast. So, that's great. Thanks to you, guys, and over to Amy. Hi, Amy, how are you?
Amy Kean 01:25
I'm very good. Thanks, Tom. Very good. Very happy to be here.
Tom Ollerton 01:31
Why did you say it like kids do?
Amy Kean 01:35
You speak on...
Tom Ollerton 01:37
And so, you on your day off?
Amy Kean 01:39
I am, yes.
Tom Ollerton 01:41
So, you work four days a week for Starcom?
Amy Kean 01:45
Yes, Starcom were very nice, and they allowed me to work four days a week when I was negotiating my package.
Tom Ollerton 01:54
So, I've often wondered about that. And I'm sure there'll be people listening to this who have, "Oh, how do you go from one to four days a week?" Was that? Did you start with that? Or was that something that you had to kind of slip in later?
Amy Kean 02:04
I started, I started with three. Like, you're gonna need to grow up a bit. And understand that working three days a week is gonna have no impact on our business, whatsoever. But I started with three because I said obviously I've got lots of other stuff going on. I do lots of writing and things. So, we negotiated and they said, we're very, very happy for you to work four days a week, which is lovely.
Tom Ollerton 02:32
And that's growing up in their eyes. So, tell me about the writing, you've finished your first book, which is going to be published in...
Amy Kean 02:42
October. So, my first book is called "The Little Girl Who Gives Zero Fucks." And it's a modern feminist fairytale written in poetry, aimed at 13 year olds plus, so adults as well. It's all about kind of bravery, how to be brave in everyday life.
Tom Ollerton 03:02
And you did that through a publishing tool online?
Amy Kean 03:08
There were an actual publisher, so they're called Unbound. And they help you to crowdfund the upfront costs of publishing. So, the idea is, or the premise is, that mainstream publishing is very risk averse. It's all celebrity biographies and like "chosen one" stories, and you know, shit like that. There's, what I realized was that there wasn't a huge amount of diversity in terms of story or author in publishing nowadays. So, that's what they tend to go for. So, they unbound work with either controversial or niche titles or working class authors or Asian authors or you know, they like to make sure that there's a real... Sorry, is that your phone ringing?
Tom Ollerton 03:52
That might be my phone ringing. We're obviously professional. Thank you for pointing that out. I'm sorry. So, it's like Kickstarter for books.
Amy Kean 04:02
Yes, it's exactly like Kickstarter for books. And what they do, so they'll give you like an upfront fee, which covers the initial print run, copy editing, proofing, design, like all this stuff there, a traditional publisher would have to invest in upfront. Basically, they work with you to crowdfund to cover those costs. And the point of the crowdfunding is that if you can prove that you will sell a certain amount then it kind of holds good stead for the future.
Tom Ollerton 04:32
And so other than me sharing it on my Facebook page... Moving on. So, yeah, apart from me sharing on Facebook, which is obviously that was the key influencer in your marketing strategy.
Amy Kean 04:51
Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 04:51
How quickly did you meet your target?
Amy Kean 04:56
I had a very high target. Higher than most other people.
Tom Ollerton 04:59
Can you tell me what it was? Or is that top secret?
Amy Kean 05:03
It was in double fit. It was in...
Tom Ollerton 05:05
More than 10 pounds.
Amy Kean 05:06
Between 10 and 15. No, shit! It was about 16 pounds.
Tom Ollerton 05:11
Okay. Wow! And you had to, you had to raise that otherwise the book wouldn't happen at all.
Amy Kean 05:16
Yeah. So, the reason why mine was quite high is because I refuse to have an E-book because I hate them. And I refuse to have a paperback, because I wanted it to be something that, you know, was shiny and strong and sell people's coffee tables. And I crowdfunded it in 20 days, which is apparently one of the fastest.
Tom Ollerton 05:39
Oh, it's brilliant. And how did you manage to do that? Obviously, great concept. And it looks really cool as well. Who did the design?
Amy Kean 05:47
A brilliant woman called J. Milton.
Tom Ollerton 05:50
And so, where did all of your funding come from? Is it kind of a few people did a lot of it? Or...
Amy Kean 05:57
So, we had about, Lordy, almost 1000 people bought the book. And a lot of those, I'd say about 40% of those I didn't know. Interestingly enough, I told you this. The gender split was like 60/40. So 60% women 40% men, which I think is lovely. Loads of men bought it for themselves and for their daughters.
Tom Ollerton 06:18
Yeah.
Amy Kean 06:19
That was a lot of the feedback that I got. Men were really, really positive about it. And in order to crowdfund it, so, I launched a Facebook page, about a month prior, started making little cartoons and stuff, writing little poems just to build up a fan base. And, did a shitload of PR while I was doing it. It's where we're at as a comment pieces, wrote loads of, a few bloggers reviewed it, like I was relentless. Like I didn't sleep for 20 days.
Tom Ollerton 06:49
Mostly 20 days work. And now, you've moved on to writing another book. An adult book?
Amy Kean 07:07
I mean, it's not porn.
Tom Ollerton 07:09
Next time.
Amy Kean 07:14
Yeah, I'm writing a novel, about a period when I went to Kenya, quite naively to volunteer. And my book is about the fallen tourism industry, which is very exploitative. And I would argue, very unethical. I didn't realize that till I got there.
Tom Ollerton 07:33
Right? Well, this is what's this, what's fascinating about you, that you've done so many different things, continue to do so many different things. So, you're pumped, almost published author, right in your second book. And you, you head up innovation at Starcom globally?
Amy Kean 07:49
Yes.
Tom Ollerton 07:50
So, what in? In a couple of minutes? What does that tap into?
Amy Kean 07:56
So, it's head off. So they threw in another word, which I now to begin with, I thought it was wonky now, I think is absolutely essential. Which is Strategic Innovation, Head of Global Head of Strategic Innovation. And, I think that's really important, because having worked in innovation for a really, really long time. Now, I realize I've got this, I like to say that innovation shouldn't be sexy. And I absolutely stand by that. And it's a nice little soundbite to have, would you because some of the most powerful sort of future proofing beneficial innovation you can't even see. So, it's stuff relating to insights and process and methodologies and data collection and data use. There isn't like a jazz hands. You know, we did this via we did a pop up in Shoreditch with this VR activation and 25 people saw it. That is innovation, of course, but I would argue that, that's only a very small part of how agencies are supposed to help their clients get better.
Tom Ollerton 09:09
Yeah, I agree with that. I think there's a lack of a word in the English language that sits between innovation and cautious. Because what you just described is like, you know, the pop up VR thing. Yeah, that's cool shit. Technology. It's the New Shiny Object. Yeah, yeah. But real innovation is I think, is better described as business transformation. Right.
Amy Kean 09:31
Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 09:32
Change your business from one thing to another?
Amy Kean 09:34
Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 09:34
Which is, I think, not the responsibility of the marketing department and very difficult for the agency, innovation, leader, whatever to affect that change.
Amy Kean 09:44
Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 09:46
Right. Well...
Amy Kean 09:49
No, I agree with you. It depends, but I think that's the thing is there. I think, especially with innovation, it's all about personalities, and it's all about I think if you if he bundled loads of heads of innovation together. Put them in a room, what would you do? What would you do with them?
Tom Ollerton 10:08
Well, have you ever never been to innovation social?
Amy Kean 10:11
No.
Tom Ollerton 10:12
That's a quarterly meetup for just that. And they listen to each other talk about innovation.
Amy Kean 10:21
If for some reason, like a terrorist decided to turn that into a hostage situation, do you think that they use innovative methods to get out of question?
Tom Ollerton 10:32
What impact would that have on the bottom line of the marketing and advertising industry?
Amy Kean 10:36
If there was like a Munich? What impact would it have?
Tom Ollerton 10:45
If all the innovation directors to come work for you.
Amy Kean 10:49
There would be a dearth of content on LinkedIn. It would be a dearth of smug content on LinkedIn. And other people would have to fill that gaping hole.
Tom Ollerton 11:04
Right. So, we tried to do some questions before and based on that answer, yeah, one of the questions was, what is the thing that you hear most often in our industry that you think is misleading advice, or, or not useful?
Amy Kean 11:25
It's actually on the subject of innovation. And it's something that's been…
Tom Ollerton 11:31
So, your phone...
Amy Kean 11:32
I had it on silent, it was just vibrating. Something that all of a sudden decided makes me angry, is the 70-20-10 rule. So, I think years ago, it was something that coke used, and they used to talk about it. And the thinking is that 70% of your budget is doing stuff that's tried and tested that you know, works for your business for your brand. 20% is doing old stuff, but in new ways. 10% is pure experimentation of your budget.
Tom Ollerton 12:04
Yeah.
Amy Kean 12:04
In terms of said your budget. I think that as an approach, so everyone started doing it now. Everyone started to humanity. Yeah, well, we for those whose return? And I think it doesn't it makes no sense. Because why would you approach innovation is basically solving problems. So, why would you approach it from a budget perspective, because you don't know that 10% of your budget is going to solve the problem that you have. So, setting parameters that are purely based on the money that's available, doesn't link up with the thing that you're trying to do at the end of it?
Tom Ollerton 12:40
That's true. In reality, it's probably just the way of selling into finance. If you go to a CEO and go, our approach to marketing is 70-20, it's really easy by. Really, you understand.
Amy Kean 12:53
Or if it was strategic innovation, or business transformation, as you were saying, you might hope that the client would be able to go to finance and say, "We've identified this problem, our agency has done the due diligence and anticipate that we will, over the next 12 months make X percent more money as a result of solving this problem." Which is a far more rigorous way to approach innovation. If money is the thing that you want to make out of it.
Tom Ollerton 13:24
And so, what...
Amy Kean 13:27
Do you agree?
Tom Ollerton 13:29
Do I agree? My issue with it is that you can get sort of easily dragged down the innovation wormhole where you're talking, it's such kind of high level that nothing's kind of actually practical. And then as soon as you put the word innovation in a sentence, it's almost like you know, sets the cat amongst the pigeons. And I think, in our profession, you have to constantly rein yourself in. Because otherwise you never get anything done.
Amy Kean 14:04
Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 14:05
And so a couple of specific questions.
Amy Kean 14:07
Yeah!
Tom Ollerton 14:08
And so you write books. I've seen you also read books.
Amy Kean 14:12
Sometimes.
Tom Ollerton 14:13
Sometimes. And what are the what are the books? Sorry about this clapping, everyone there are literally...
Amy Kean 14:21
Flies everywhere, little ones.
Tom Ollerton 14:26
So, what are the marketing books that you recommend most often?
Amy Kean 14:31
Um, there's a book by Byron Sharp. I'm only joking. As everyone else is gonna say. So, I'm not sure whether it's a book that is read by lots of marketing professionals, and it's the book that I'd recommend because it helps you learn how to behave in a team in the office at work, which is "The Chimp Paradox."
Tom Ollerton 15:04
Yes. I've heard about "The Chimp Paradox." Can you give us a quick overview?
Amy Kean 15:10
So, it's written. Sorry, was such a tickly cough today, let me just cough before... So, it's written by a sports psychologist and he trained Bradley Wiggins and Jessica Ennis, is that most people in the Olympics that was in the UK, and he trained them. And obviously, within that Olympics, they were incredibly successful. And his approach, is it sports psychology, but it's actually kind of based on many, many other theories like Freudian, but lots of other neurological kind of stances that suggest that our brain is made up of an emotional bit, irrational bit, a rational bit, and a bit that just make sure we keep breathing, make sure we keep blinking and safe and stuff. And, and within "The Chimp Paradox," the author calls the emotional part of your brain, the chimp. And the whole book is about learning to train your chimp. And the idea is that when data goes into your brain, it goes to your chimp first, and your chimp is irrational, and emotional and instinctive. And your chimp will process information, which is why sometimes you react, you fly off the handle, or you overreact or you get really emotional without thinking things through.
Tom Ollerton 16:36
So, how have you, how have you used that in your work? You said it helps you work better with people.
Amy Kean 16:43
It does, yes. So, the first thing that they say to you in the book is to name your chimp. Because when you name your chimp, it makes it easier to train, and to have a handle on. And so the name of my chimp is Margaret. And I am very open with my co-workers, about my chimp and the name of my chimp. And sometimes...
Tom Ollerton 17:08
You tell other people about Margaret?
Amy Kean 17:10
Yeah, of course, sometimes I'll say, "Sorry, Margaret's having a little run around. Ignore her."
Tom Ollerton 17:18
Let me just get that. You are in a meeting with someone, you'll kick off. And then you'll say, "Sorry. Margaret, took over." Your variance to yourself in the third person is a monkey called Margaret.
Amy Kean 17:38
That's obviously not how it works. Just, we haven't been, sorry, I clapped again, because there was a fly that's now dead on my hand. I think it's just important to be very honest with your colleagues and explain to them sometimes, "Oh, actually, I think I did overreact in that situation." Or actually, maybe let's think about it some more, because our initial responses to this idea might not be too emotional, or what have you. Also, one of the things, a whole section of the book is about public speaking. And, did you know that the reason why I doubt you get nervous when you're about to do a gig, but I do. And apparently, there's an evolutionary reason for why people get so nervous, like you, you know, your heart pounds, and you say, "This is the worst thing ever." And you can't even imagine, you can't even imagine being able to pull it off, because you're so fucking nervous. Apparently, there's an evolutionary reason because years ago, on the Savanna. If all eyes were on you, it meant you're about to be attacked. And so that's why humans behave in that way. But it's totally irrational. It's completely irrational. But part of this book helps you to understand that you're being irrational, and you just need to shut off that emotional part of your brain. And that's helped me loads.
Tom Ollerton 19:06
So, I read the book and I went through the process of taming my chimp.
Amy Kean 19:13
What's his name?
Tom Ollerton 19:14
I wouldn't have a clue. You didn't get that far into the books? Absolutely.
Amy Kean 19:17
It's the second chapter, Tom. Did you read the first few pages? Like, "Yeah, yeah got it. Got it. Got it, yeah."
Tom Ollerton 19:24
That's true. Most business books... What I used to do is in certain meetings in like, my calendar, I'd write in like brackets chin, or like, like Star C. So, whenever I was going into a meeting, I was sort of prepare myself to go like someone's gonna fucking weird me out here. So, I need to prepare. But if people would just go, "Tom, what does it mean in your invite that you've sent me with a chimp written into it." And I was like, uhh. So, that's the book you kind of recommend the most. So, put a slightly different spin on it. So, if you were advising someone who was recently graduated or looking to move across into the marketing advertising industry, what advice would you give?
Amy Kean 20:15
Get over yourself. It's so, so, it's a really important, it was a piece of advice that I was given really early on in my career, to get over yourself to get over myself. And I think it's really, really good advice because…
Tom Ollerton 20:35
Can you qualify what that means?
Amy Kean 20:36
I will. And I think it's really important. Confidence is amazing, obviously. However, I think it's really, really important to always have an air of humility, to always, always, always keep learning, like, always keep learning, always make sure you read lots of different sources, always make sure you question yourself, you have some self awareness, like all of those trades. It's easy when you start to work in the media industry, and you start to build up, maybe you start to gain some traction, and you start to have like a few successful projects and you become a bit more popular. It's really easy to get carried away with yourself. And that is I'm not joking now. That's genuine advice.
Tom Ollerton 21:19
But that isn't that once someone's in the industry. So, what about someone who's like, you know, literally, they've moved to London or staying with their uncle or something, and they really want to work for an agency used by working for brands?
Amy Kean 21:31
Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 21:31
How do you get in? How do you? How do you break through the, you know, the thousands of the people that all want to be on the Starcom grad scheme.
Amy Kean 21:45
I think it's doable, okay, in terms of so I used to lecture at Bournemouth University. So, I used to deal with all of these young people looking to enter the industry. And, the best piece of advice I could give them was, be active on Twitter. It's really, really simple. Be active on Twitter, have a blog, have an opinion, talk to people, kind of get yourself heard, go to lots of events. I mean, that's really simple. I used to get also, I was more inclined to give internships to students that send me really nice letters, like really interesting letters, or like, you know, creative ways of applying for internships, even if they weren't advertised.
Tom Ollerton 22:38
Yeah, I think for me, the creativity is the main tool like, I hate TVs, I think it's the most unimaginative way of selling your skill set. Yeah, fundamentally, our industry is about selling, right?
Amy Kean 22:52
Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 22:53
So, if you can't sell yourself, then what chance have you got of representing a brand? So...
Amy Kean 22:58
Did you see the Sprite, this Sprite guy? There was a guy. I mean, this is about OTT. But there was a guy who wanted to be a copywriter. He recorded an entire music video saying that he wanted to work for Sprite.
Tom Ollerton 23:14
Wow, did he get the job?
Amy Kean 23:16
Yeah, he got a job at Wieden+Kennedy.
Tom Ollerton 23:18
So, I mean, we are so sure they have, every year have a take, one or two grads on?
Amy Kean 23:26
Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 23:26
And there's like, I think 2000 people get down to 20 come in for a day and go around all the departments and one guy came across from Australia. And he didn't get the job. Like, it must be quite intimidating though. You got to make a Sprite video or you've got to fly from Australia. You know, it's kind of, it's a tough one. We do. But he wanted to work with me for some reason. That'll be ridiculous.
Amy Kean 24:00
I hope he combines it with a holiday. Like he...
Tom Ollerton 24:02
I'm pretty sure, other than meetings. And so, slight different tack. If you had a digital media budget of 10 million pounds to get any message out there. What would it be? You don't have to give me a full media layout, but just...
Amy Kean 24:22
You don't want a plan?
Tom Ollerton 24:24
Knock yourself out.
Amy Kean 24:26
And, oh, you're gonna hate this 'cause it's political.
Tom Ollerton 24:32
Come on then.
Amy Kean 24:33
Ah, well, one of the things that I've noticed, you know, particularly over the last few months because Starcom really, Starcom's excellent because we deal with these thought leadership pieces. I am going somewhere with this on like the future of food and the future of retail and the future of things in real life, that actually agencies and brands need to be aware of. And what I realized every single time, we look at the future of X, Y, or dead?
Tom Ollerton 25:00
Yeah.
Amy Kean 25:01
We're always talking about the future of the middle class. Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 25:06
Because it's the future of people that have a certain amount of disposable income or, you know, want a talking fridge. And so, I've been thinking a lot recently about how just about inequality, but not gender inequality, per se, about kind of financial inequality. And I think I would, if I had any that amount of money, I would do a big promotional push, to get people to, oh, we would give them to charity, Tom, because it's a bit of a waste. But if I, if I, if there were, for some reason, this was a weird thing, where there were rules, and I had to do it, I would promote, I would ask people to give decent food to food banks. Because when we did to get a smirk off your face, get a speck of your face. And then we finish the hours. When we did a project on the future of food, I looked at all the stats for food banks, and like visits to food banks in the UK have like tripled or something in the last year. And a third of those visits are kids. And it's actually a huge horrible issue in our country that not enough people are talking about and not enough people are aware of. And the problem is that wonderful people donate food to food banks, but it's all bad. It's like it's pasta, and it's rice, and it's super noodles. And that isn't a decent diet for anybody. So, your message would be to support food banks in a more healthy way.
Amy Kean 26:34
Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 26:35
And do it. Alright, so say someone's listening to this. And I think that's a great idea. How would they do that? Do you have someone I could link to?
Amy Kean 26:45
Yeah, there's a website that lists everybody's local food banks. It sounds like a read, I mean, it's the thing is, it's really, really important, like social issues like that. Everything's getting so clouded at the moment. Sorry, I'm totally like, everything. The whole kind of political cultural narrative is so dominated by, "Jeremy Corbyn being a Russian spy, or Theresa May being a dick or whatever," it's just about personality politics. And there's a huge amount of social issues that because everyone's fighting, everyone's talking shit, and there's a huge amount of social issues that aren't getting their attention they deserve. COI. Remember, years ago, the COI, used to have so much more money. They used to do like anti-drugs, ads like, there were so many more ads on TV about genuine social issues. And now you just don't you don't see it that much anymore. I don't think.
Tom Ollerton 27:39
No, it's true. I don't know, I think one of the things that really tries, we'll certainly be around in the innovation space, like Elon Musk putting a car in space, or someone creating a smartwatch. It's not the real problem. And I think your point about everything about the future, the middle classes absolutely bang on, I understand that they have shareholders and targets. But like we didn't, we didn't really did not need smartwatches. We didn't need those. However, you've got how many million people that have a terrible diet and would absolutely need our support.
Amy Kean 28:16
Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 28:16
And that, and I think it's a bit sad the way that our heroes in Western middle class society are the people who do a billion-dollar exit that is seen as success.
Amy Kean 28:27
Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 28:28
He sold the startup for 40 million quid, therefore he is in some kind of elite, but there's no measure of what they do that 40 million.
Amy Kean 28:35
Yeah, yeah.
Tom Ollerton 28:36
Where did it go?
Amy Kean 28:38
Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 28:39
And, right. Okay. So, thank you for sharing all that stuff. So, this is the Shiny New Object Podcast, we've talked about a few innovation bits. Guests on this podcast come and talk about their favorite bit of new tech and tell the audience what's good about it, and I will try and take the role of the skeptical marketer in that situation.
Amy Kean 29:04
What's his name?
Tom Ollerton 29:06
Margaret. So, your Shiny New Object is augmented reality.
Amy Kean 29:13
Cheers.
Tom Ollerton 29:14
First question, what is it?
Amy Kean 29:16
Augmented reality is the process of using mobile technology or mobile lens to add an additional layer onto what you see in real life. So, most often it will occur through a mobile phone and via your mobile phone, you can see some kind of creative object or something overlaid onto the real life setting.
Tom Ollerton 29:44
So, give me an example of a mainstream use of this.
Amy Kean 29:50
Will the obvious one is Pokemon, Pokemon GO?
Tom Ollerton 29:53
Yeah.
Amy Kean 29:54
Which was I mean, that's the perfect example because everybody obviously use their phones to look around the real world around them, and the augmented reality overlaid these weird little characters. Well, I never played it, Tom.
Tom Ollerton 30:08
You never played it? You never played it?
Amy Kean 30:10
I was in, I was in Asia at the time. When it was big, and Asia was one of the last continents to get it. And there was a huge delay between like Singapore and Vietnam. And I remember I was in South Korea, when it launched, and oh my god, I have never seen such a frenzy of people losing their shit. When I was in South Korea, and Pokemon GO launched, I just grew to just like massive crowds of people just running from one place to the next, like screaming at each other. I think it was... I assumed it was.
Tom Ollerton 30:56
Yeah, 'cause I went back to the days when the CIO have money, I used to work for an agency that survived almost entirely on that. And there was a guy at work who invented an AR business card. So, you put your phone on a business card, and the thing happened. And really, nothing happened in AR until, like, a few years ago. So, and Pokemon GO, obviously massively successful. Yeah, Facebook, filters and so on. Hugely successful. So, why do you care about it? Why are you so interested in it in your job?
Amy Kean 31:32
So, I have a love-hate relationship with augmented reality because for as long as I can remember, I've been a massive advocate because I've, I've seen how, because I, I genuinely think it's a...
Tom Ollerton 31:50
That is the innovation alarm?
Amy Kean 31:54
Is the bullshit detector. Right? Tom, in your opinion, what is the most boring fruit?
Tom Ollerton 32:07
Bananas. They don't taste anything. Anyway, moving on...
Amy Kean 32:10
They, I only tasted banana. Banana is the strongest tasting of all the fruits, if you have a smoothie with banana in it, or you can taste it banana.
Tom Ollerton 32:19
I'm not getting into this. We finally gotten to some valuable content. I'm not gonna derail us into the benefits of different fruits. Different podcasts. Right, so you have a love-hate relationship with AR?
Amy Kean 32:33
I have a love hate relationship with augmented reality, because I can see. I feel like. You know, like, the kid in the "Poltergeist" film?
Tom Ollerton 32:50
Yeah.
Amy Kean 32:51
That's like, "But the guys, guys. Look, look, there's a poltergeist, guy's, I can see it," and everyone else. No one else believes him. It's so obvious. I feel like that kid. I know and dies. Just in general. And because I can, I feel like there's so much potential for augmented reality, from an entertainment perspective. But from a health perspective, as well as psychological perspective, it could be so amazing. And it could literally change lives. I do actually believe that. But I feel like many of the major players, we might be, we might be at a tipping point. But I feel like until now, there's been I don't think there's been enough consumer education. And I don't think the industry has realized its potential. And that frustrates me, that frustrates me very much, because I've constantly been trying to sell it into clients for like the past eight years.
Tom Ollerton 33:59
So, what is stopping that? Is it because a lot of AR experiences, if not all, depend on some form of download. So, to download an app for you to be marketed is completely fraught with problems. But then the other option is to use augmented reality within an existing app. So, Facebook or Instagram, whether that tag has already been downloaded.
Amy Kean 34:25
Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 34:26
So, what's stopping it working for brands in 2018?
Amy Kean 34:35
Just on your point, I think one of the say so since maybe like 2011, the major player was kind of a self proclaimed major player within the AR industry has been Blippar. And by all accounts, that's an amazing bundle of technology that they now call visual search. I don't even know if they call it AR as they used to. And I think there's a responsibility in any market, the leader has a responsibility to educate consumers and to drive the industry. And I don't believe that Blippar have done a particularly good job of educating consumers and making them crave AR technology, or AR experiences. I think from an industry point of view, which is a shame, I think, from an industry point of view, there's a few barriers that are very labor intensive. And even Snapchat filters are pretty labor intensive to create these they take a while to create. Making some kind of AR experience will cost a lot of money inevitably. And then you have to think about your reach. So, that's been another hurdle, particularly with Blippar, where you'd, historically the opportunity was to partner with them. And you could use the same word cereal brand Kellogg's, or someone, you could make your cereal box AR ready, and you could scan the box and then snap, crackle and pop would jump out and do a little dance. But then you have to find some way over and above your packaging to promote the fact that that was a thing. And that's where it always fell down. Snapchat is the more recent kind of modern version of AR, obviously, is limited to your face. But that kind of counteracts some of the previous challenges, because with Snapchat, you have creative and you can buy reach as well. And every campaign I've done with Snapchat, where we've had a filter or a lens has been crazily effective from an engagement perspective.
Tom Ollerton 36:51
So, what...
Amy Kean 36:53
How long have I been talking for it? Feels like... I can't remember.
Tom Ollerton 37:02
It's like, you literally blacked out from your own voice. So, as you say, it's expensive, it's bespoke. They're usually built from the ground up to why would a brand invest in augmented reality when they could just do a great video? And then they don't have any of those issues you can serve on any platform and cheaper the turnarounds? What is the what what do they all have that video doesn't.
Amy Kean 37:34
So, if you look at, so, all anybody wants from a piece of content, if he's branded content is some kind of emotional positive emotional reaction. And obviously, there's various technologies, like facial recognition and stuff that allow you to measure the emotional response to your videos. They're generally fine. Like responses to videos generally fine, but if you see like I've seen, like, will consumers react to augmented reality and like something popping up in you know, like a dinosaur popping up? In the real world via their phone? And actually, the level of emotional response you get is like, it's almost like, "Ah!"
Tom Ollerton 38:19
So, yeah, which is? Yeah, I've seen that as well. And I think that's true. That's a cool, you go, "Ooh!" It's kind of like, it's like it's titillation right? But...
Amy Kean 38:30
Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 38:31
Is that, what's that really delivering for the brand though? Like, yes, it's cool. Yes, it's way more interesting, working with influencers or you know, email or any other channel, and for us, it's like super exciting.
Amy Kean 38:43
Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 38:43
What is that really delivering for the brand, other than that, "Ohh!" Which could come from anyone?
Amy Kean 38:50
But it depends what you do, I suppose.
Tom Ollerton 38:52
So, what are the good examples of branded AR?
Amy Kean 38:55
So, the industry I think there's absolutely smashed I think, if they put more money into this, they could also they could almost prop up the entire AR industry is the beauty space. Because in beauty, obviously it has, like, kind of tangible benefits. Because I remember years ago L'Oreal works with Blippar, oh god, look at my nails they're awful.
Tom Ollerton 39:24
Really great podcast content.
Amy Kean 39:27
But they were to say that you kids, try different nail varnish colors on your nails. I think L'Oreal have invested in what they've just bought, they just bought an AR company or something called ModiFace. Yeah, and obviously using AR you can put makeup on your face to see what it looks like you can change your hair color. That's I mean that's it's a no brainer. If you go to this is exceptional if you go to the Charlotte Tilbury store in Covent Garden. They have, as soon as you walk in, I'm a massive fan of Charlotte Tilbury because I think they just nail digital marketing across the board like a really decent modern brand. If you go into the Charlotte Tilbury store, there's a mirror as soon as you walk in, and you look in the mirror, and you can press like six different buttons, and it shows you six different makeup looks on your face. And it looks so unbelievably realistic. And it doesn't put makeup artists out of business. But it's a really quick way to know which look is right for you before you start browsing. And it's such a good branded experience like that is why the store in Covent Garden is rammed constantly.
Tom Ollerton 40:38
So, it's interesting...
Amy Kean 40:39
Do you know Charlotte? Do you know Charlotte Tilbury brand?
Tom Ollerton 40:41
I've met them in person.
Amy Kean 40:43
You met Charlotte Tilbury in person?
Tom Ollerton 40:45
Yes. She's great. No. So, I think it's interesting.
Amy Kean 40:51
You just called me a melon because there's loads of...
Tom Ollerton 40:54
Once again, you're choosing podcast content is absolutely remarkable. So, the two things you mentioned that were really interesting is the fact that the modern version of AR that's very successful with something like Snapchat filters.
Amy Kean 41:10
Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 41:10
All based on your face, one direct use or like actually almost linked purchase... Yeah. Is beauty and is the face. Is that it? Should brands be considering AR, if there isn't some kind of direct benefit, you can apply to the most important thing in anyone's kind of social real estate, which is their face?
Amy Kean 41:35
I think that for most brands, there'll be, let's discount finance. I'm not entirely sure how the finance industry would use augmented reality.
Tom Ollerton 41:46
Make your figures look better.
Amy Kean 41:51
I saw you know what I saw an app which uses AR, I was thinking you could hold it up to people. I saw an app that uses AR that you hold up your phone to a crowd and it tells you what people are single.
Tom Ollerton 42:02
No way.
Amy Kean 42:03
Yes, I've used it.
Tom Ollerton 42:04
What's it called?
Amy Kean 42:05
Oh, shut up. You can't know. Put your phone away.
Tom Ollerton 42:08
I'll put in the show notes. It's part of my job.
Amy Kean 42:10
But you could, you could hold it up and it could tell you what people were rich.
Tom Ollerton 42:15
Is this in Harry Potter? How does it work? Are you single?
Amy Kean 42:20
Because...
Tom Ollerton 42:33
Oh, no, it picks out you because you're the person interacting with the world by.
Amy Kean 42:40
For most types of products, there's going to be some kind of try before you buy element fashion. I think even the area where it's really exciting, potentially exciting, which is in its massive businesses in the pharmaceutical industry. So, the pharmaceutical industry obviously suffers from a horrible reputation problem. Everyone thinks it's fine to diagnose children with ADHD to sell a shit ton of Ritalin. I think there's a Netflix documentary about that. Anyway, the pharmaceutical industry could start to use AR to identify using someone's face, which often is the gateway to understanding how healthy someone is. Yeah, they could use AR to read someone's face to identify whether that person was suffering from liver problems, or they were eating the wrong kind of food. They weren't getting enough sleep, whatever. And then they could potentially recommend pharmaceutical solutions based on that reading.
Tom Ollerton 43:44
So what's the future for AR what we're gonna see in the next five years? What are you selling currently? Where is it gonna get to? Is it gonna be glasses? And everything's gonna be not gonna have to hold your phone up?
Amy Kean 44:01
Oh, you know, you know, you know, what my solution is. Which is the AR sheath.
Tom Ollerton 44:07
AR sheath? Remind me.
Amy Kean 44:09
People, people, this is where... Okay, so, there's you know, when you do futurology, you have to have a scenario plan.
Tom Ollerton 44:17
Yeah.
Amy Kean 44:19
So, you have to like, you have to provide various different possible futures. So, one future could be in the in like 20 years, Photoshopping goes nuts. And everybody is, has this kind of sheath over them which is the AR version of who they want to be.
Tom Ollerton 44:42
Do you know, a little bit in that direction, there's a hat you can buy. The hat has a series of lights and stuff underneath that particular thing, the thing that sticks out in his hat, and what it can do is it can change the way that an image recognition camera sees your face to the point of which you can convince it, you're someone else.
Amy Kean 45:06
What?!
Tom Ollerton 45:06
Yeah, so it shines the lights on, you know, it knows what imagery or facial recognition camera would pick up. And it shines the relevant things on your face. So, I could, I could pass myself as you by having this weird...
Amy Kean 45:20
Like "Face/Off," the film.
Tom Ollerton 45:23
Yeah, with a hat.
Amy Kean 45:26
So, that's, so that's one possible future. So, our love for filters, and Photoshopping goes nuts. And instead of plastic surgery, people just have this kind of AR filter around their bodies so that anyone only sees exactly what you want them to see. I think from a try before you buy perspective, I think AR could be massive in online shopping, because at the moment, you can try on makeup first. But, if the technology becomes more sophisticated, I could try on shoes, I could try on clothes, but genuinely have those clothes matched with my body, my exact body shape, to see if it fits or not. I think that's totally possible. I think another potential future is that it just becomes, so, AR has also been used for people who suffer from various different phobias like arachnophobia where the you put your phone over a surface, and it shows those of spiders and you kind of practice all those like, you know, breathing techniques, or whatever techniques it is to try and deal with that fear. I think, from a mental health perspective, AR could have, has wonderful potential. You could almost imagine a future where you know, everyone, I mean, the world is always obsessed with food and the next food fad and what they should eat. And at the moment, charcoal was like the thing. I can imagine a future in which AR is like I was saying before used to say I read your face when you read your own face if you want. And it tells you exactly what foods you need to eat.
Tom Ollerton 47:07
Is that AR or facial recognition?
Amy Kean 47:09
It was kind of both, because Snapchat, think about how Snapchat works.
Tom Ollerton 47:13
Yeah.
Amy Kean 47:13
It recognizes your face in order to add that AR layer. So, the two can't work. The two are mutually exclusive, they have to work together.
Tom Ollerton 47:22
So, where do you stand on Microsoft HoloLens?
Amy Kean 47:26
Been around for a while, isn't it? I think the...
Tom Ollerton 47:28
What was your experience of that?
Amy Kean 47:30
I've never used it. I've just seen the videos. And from what I gather, it has the most potential for the B2B space like designers and architects.
Tom Ollerton 47:39
Yeah, I...
Amy Kean 47:40
You need to have like, where it's hugely beneficial to have that additional layer of how things are going to, you know, things you design are going to look.
Tom Ollerton 47:49
Yeah, I tried a few this sort of entertainment things, and it wasn't, I must have radically developed it, the field of vision was very narrow. So, if you like looking at the sea, in front of you, if you kept your head very still, then it would work within like a very small bandwidth. But if you moved your head at all, the illusion would change. But to your point, it was really useful what they said. So, you're going around a building and you're doing some kind of safety procedure, you can like look at a window and then mark on that window, virtually, there's no need to be fixed or it's not safe, and you go round. So, then the next person that comes round can go but has this been fixed, yes or no? All that kind of stuff. And so back to one of your earlier points, you said, when people talk about the future of things, they're talking about the future of the middle class?
Amy Kean 48:40
Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 48:41
Is there a future of augmented reality that is going to benefit not the people with the fancy smartphone devices that can handle the processing power required? Is there an augmented reality out there for someone who hasn't got the money to buy an iPhone 10? Yeah.
Amy Kean 48:56
Well, this is the thing that is there. Augmented reality is probably the most democratizing of all technologies, because everyone has a bloody iPhone. Like if there's one thing that whether you're working class, middle class, whatever, there's one thing that people will want is a smartphone. Smartphone penetration is practically 100% in this country, different in countries like the Philippines or Vietnam, where feature phones are still quite popular. So, globally, that may not apply. But I think in countries like the UK, the one thing that everybody will have is a smartphone.
Tom Ollerton 49:31
So, just starting to wrap this up now. So...
Amy Kean 49:34
Awwe.
Tom Ollerton 49:35
If... We can carry on... So, if there was a marketer who'd never done anything in AR, and they're like, "You know what? This actually, this sounds really exciting, relevant." What would you suggest that they do the first step?
Amy Kean 49:53
An easy entry point is to partner with a publisher to experiment with augmented reality. So, there's various publishers now, like the New York Times, have just launched an AR feature via their app, where you can work on, like a content partnership. And whatever is in the content partnership, you can have some kind of AR. Um, so if you were, if I worked for Tourist Board, like the most obvious whenever I worked for a Tourist Board, I could partner with the New York Times to create some travel content. And you could use the AR app to actually see the places that I was trying to promote.
Tom Ollerton 50:37
Right.
Amy Kean 50:37
In all of that, kind of three-dimensional glory.
Tom Ollerton 50:40
So, find the publisher that has a broad set of values to your brand's...
Amy Kean 50:44
Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 50:45
'Cause they've already invested in the infrastructure and they need content, and are happy to do a deal. So, reach out to them. What's technically possible on the platform, and that then becomes the brief?
Amy Kean 50:54
Yeah. So, there's, like you said, right at the beginning, one of the biggest challenges is that you want more phones are becoming, so the Galaxy, Samsung Galaxy S9, it's kind of AR ready. And the latest iOS is also so that's a barrier removed. But one of the biggest challenges is, is historically you did have to download an app. So, that's why loads of publishers who have loads of people who've downloaded their apps, and their safest option, if you want to do something serious.
Tom Ollerton 51:27
And if people wanted to get in touch with you? How do they do that?
Amy Kean 51:34
I think they can tweet me.
Tom Ollerton 51:36
Yeah?
Amy Kean 51:36
Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 51:37
Well, what's your Twitter handle?
Amy Kean 51:39
It's @keano81 and the 81 has no relevance whatsoever. It's just a number that I like.
Tom Ollerton 51:46
And that's Keano with a K?
Amy Kean 51:51
K-e-a-n-o-8-1. And 81 is a number. It's not spelled out.
Tom Ollerton 51:57
Fantastic. And if they wanted to read your book, what would be the best thing for them to do?
Amy Kean 52:04
You can preorder it now. So, if you go to unbound.com/books/gave-zero. You can, you can preorder it. And there's still time, I think there's another two months where people can buy it, and they can still get their name in the back of the book.
Tom Ollerton 52:23
Mind back of the book?
Amy Kean 52:24
Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 52:25
Awesome. I think that is it. So, thank you for sharing all your advice of people trying to get into the industry or your insight about how the industry works. It's got to say this again, I think it's amazing that you have written the first book, getting published, and you got the second one on the way, and you're someone that a lot of people in the industry look up to because I've been basically sending around my blurb about this podcast. The amount of people, "Kean, she's amazing." It's like, crushes me to myself that you are so much more successful than me. Anyway, I'll get you back one of these days.
Amy Kean 53:05
That's nice. What a lovely way to end... Ngawwe.
Tom Ollerton 53:10
This is, I mean, you've, you've talked about flies, grapes, the fire alarm. Anything else? Any other bombshells you want to leave us with?
Amy Kean 53:18
What do you think about augmented reality, Tom?
Tom Ollerton 53:22
So, now that I am no longer an agency person selling innovation, as such, you start to see the innovations for what they were because there's an innovation person that is your currency in your life, to be able to sell and spot opportunities to sell in innovation, because clients are paying for "innovation projects." They weren't not doing your job.
Amy Kean 53:48
Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 53:49
That's pretty much the measure.
Amy Kean 53:50
Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 53:50
So, you see the positive and benefit and everything. So, as a job, I like, "Oh, my God, it could change everything. Virtually. Oh, my God, this thing where you could do?"
Amy Kean 53:59
Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 54:00
Whereas it seems you step out of that world, not role, you just instantly default to kind of consumer skepticism.
Amy Kean 54:06
Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 54:07
So, with AR, well go download an app. And this is gonna sound ridiculous, be gonna hold it up. Like you have to hold up your phone.
Amy Kean 54:15
Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 54:15
In order to get the benefit of it, which is, there's a cost to doing that. I mean, it's not much of a cost, but versus an experience you can get by just swiping with your thumb, which is, you know, is the least amount of effort possible to pretty much enjoy 99.9% of the internet. AR needs to find a way to be as easy as a thumb swipe, and until it gets to that point, it's never gonna go mass beyond it's the applications that hasn't.
Amy Kean 54:41
Yeah, also, the thing is everyone talks about Pokemon GO like it was such an unexpected hit. But Pokemon is like a 20 year franchise that's been on TV, that has plush toys like...
Tom Ollerton 54:54
Yeah, it's...
Amy Kean 54:56
Yeah, yeah. And probably that's what took. That entire bloody...
Tom Ollerton 55:02
20 years of investment in that media...
Amy Kean 55:06
Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 55:07
To get to that point. So, I think that's the interesting thing about for me doing this podcast is sitting on the other side of the coin and like for example, if you and I were the heads of marketing for brands, you know, would we leap into AR, like all of our budget, of course you wouldn't though.
Amy Kean 55:26
If I was doing maternity leave cover. If it was only for a short amount of time. I would, I'd be like "Guys, let's go leave our budget to AR."
Tom Ollerton 55:38
Wow. For anyone who's thinking about employing Amy. Right. I'll leave it there. Thank you so much.
Amy Kean 55:48
Thanks, bye!
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